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Why IS dating rule for guys
(lemmy.world)
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this post was submitted on 14 Nov 2024
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That s not true , of course doing the basic minimum of a normal human IS required but its not enough to have a gf today. The loneliness epidemic is real and not all lonely guy are complete moron. Personally I think one major factor is the privatization of love.
Ask someone out for coffee. Talk about your week. Ask about theirs. Don't treat the interaction as a pass/fail. Repeat. If you have mutual attraction then nature will play out.
Doing the bare minimum hygiene and the appearance of happiness drastically improves your chances.
Dating is for finding someone you enjoy being around. Sex is a result of growing closer.
Obviously some people have it easier than others but I have peers that just refuse to ask people out for coffee or a lunch. I'm a late millennial if that matters.
Be a decent person and if a love interest doesn't personally find you attractive they WILL tell their friends. NEVER talk poorly about your previous relationships. Learn a few jokes.
The privatization of love is a real problem but the classic approach isn't dead.
Who?
Get out of the house. Join some group activities. Enrich yourself. Make some friends.
If you are looking for a more specific example then try yoga or an exercise group like cycling. These kind of activities signal that you are looking to improve yourself and that is always a plus. Just remember not to leer and be polite.
OK, I've been weightlifting and bouldering for three years now.
Now what? Neurotypicals like you never explain the next step.
I mean, you can't just get fit and expect someone to come knocking on your door. If you are feeling good about your looks now, that's an accomplishment you can be happy about, and should, but it doesn't send out some secret signal that you are ready for a relationship. You have to talk to actual people. You can meet them out in the world or on an app, you can also tell any friends you have that you are looking to start dating, network. I think friends of friends and dating apps are the most usual ways of getting dates now. When I was young we just hung out in groups and some people always people ended up paired off, didn't really date per se, but my kids don't seem to do that as much.
So basically - now you are happy about your physical shape, you still have to reach out to people, that is the next step.
I'm not. It took me almost 4 years to have a normal BMI, yet I'm still super skinny, my face is still horrible, and I'm not even that good at weight lifting (bench-pressing 60kg is terrible).
Who? And say what?
This "advice" is always repeated by people like you, yet they can't answer the most basic question about it.
They know, but what can they do about it?
I used several apps for 2 years and got nothing. Maybe a match every six months. Those apps are scams anyway; I know for a fact Tinder shadowbans accounts of people they deem too ugly. I did an experiment with a friend once; we both set our search perimeter to less than a kilometer. I could see her account, but she couldn't see mine.
Again: who? Say what? I asked that question to several people over the years, both IRL and on Reddit/Lemmy, and NEVER got an answer.
You are talking to us here, now. I know you do rock climbing and weight lifting. If you have friends, you talk to them too. It's not different from that. You are doing it already. There's not a formula.
What friends can do is tell their friends you are a great guy and introduce you to other people. That's what networking is, the same way you network computers, you network human relationships, by connecting them.
I did not randomly send you a DM. We were both on the same thread (so a conversation subject was already decided), and the very structure of Lemmy makes it acceptable to reply to random people in various threads, with the added benefit of it being in written form. Real life is very different; I can't just listen to conversations people I don't know are having, and randomly interject when I feel I have something relevant to say.
I understand what that is, but it cannot work. I know one tried at least twice to hook me up with someone. They do not have the power to fix me. No one does.
Damn, I feel that to my core. One of the few benefits people like us would've had in the pre-internet days, was that striking up casual conversations with strangers was considered more acceptable. Thankfully, my (also neurodivergent) father set an example for that when I was growing up - he chatted up everyone, and as a consequence seemed to know people no matter where he went. Yeah, some people probably thought he talked too much, but so what? He wasn't bothered, and he occasionally made actual connections through it. At the very least, I imagine most people would recognize my father as a friendly guy.
I try to let that empower me, even though it's much easier said than done. The thing is, if you go into a conversation expecting to be viewed negatively, it's going to impact how the interaction goes. Also, something that took me a painfully long time to learn, is that internet strangers can't substitute for therapy. Just because neurotypicals know how to do something, doesn't mean they can explain how they do it. I held that same expectation through my youth, but since NTs never had to go through the socialization process step-by-step in order to learn it, expecting them to break it down the way you want them to simply isn't going to happen.
That is, unless they've studied it and know how to give constructive advice that makes sense from your perspective. And at that point, you're actually seeking a therapist anyway.
How else can I be viewed? Joining someone else's conversation uninvited is very impolite. This is not acceptable behavior. It's annoying at best, creepy at worst.
Therapists are charlatans. They aren't real doctors. They cannot heal, they cannot prescribe, they cannot operate.
I recommend not calling someone you exchanged two comments with neurotypical. It's quite rude and in this case outright wrong.
Since we are talking in circles refer to my first statement.
Ask someone out for coffee. (In case you are wondering the unwritten first rule is introduce yourself)
If you have someone like a therapist/counselor/psychologist. I reccomend you work with them to smooth your edges.
You're upset that other person is jumping to conclusions about you, yet you jumped to conclusions about the thread OP and something burger not having the ability to come up with the advice you doled out.
Your responses implied that they needed was some rudimentary social knowledge when they're trying to explain that the loneliness epidemic is more nuanced than the meme portrayed it as.
Tbh your advice was pretty typical
I said ask someone out to coffee and they responded "who"? The implication was that they aren't exposed to a lot of people.
Hopefully seeing my "typical" advice will inspire someone to give it a try instead of just ignoring it as a neurotypical approach.
I'm just trying to spread advice on what worked for me. And I'm speaking in general whereas Nothing burger directly called me neurotypical with the intent to discredit my advice.
That being said I'm getting a little adgitated by some of the dms I have received.
Again: who? That part is always missing. "Talk to people!" and say what? I can't go to a random person and ask them what their favorite color is. How do I pick a person and what do I tell them? This question is seemingly impossible to answer, as no one ever gave me one.
I don't believe in pseudo-science. Those people can't do anything. They are not real doctors. They will not cure my autism. Plus, they are expensive and not reimbursed by social security (this is how you know it's a scam, unlike actual medical professionals).
Therapists et al aren't trying to cure autism. They help people navigate social situations, personal and social problems and confusion, and (this part is unrelated) emotional and psychological issues.
You may be able to benefit from a therapist helping discover a set of unspoken rules that certain social interactions are based on, and create a plan of action to engage using those rules, instead of "curing your autism" which isn't possible.
Have a good day. I don't think I can achieve anything here over text.
Therapy and psychology is valid. There are plenty of providers that operate with a sliding scale and if you income is what I assume you will be free/low cost case.
You don't need to "cure" your autism. You just need to identify the parts of you that are more abrasive and manage them.
I hope you find what you are looking for, or at the least find someone to help you work on yourself.
And you didn't answer my question : who do I talk to and what do I say to them? Every time. You people are so predictable.
If you like, we can do the ol' earpiece while I hide in the bushes trick.
Literally anyone you see regularly see. Make light eye contact and smile. After a couple times seeing the same person just try something simple:
" I see you here often. Do you know ______?"
A: Yes/ "Ya they have been coming here since _____. I started back in ________."
B: No/ "Oh, well I'm ________ it's a pleasure to meet you."
You are planting seeds of discourse. It makes you more approachable.
I have engaged you here in good faith so I'd appreciate the same in return.
You're telling me to be annoying or a creep. Talking to someone unsolicited isn't generally accepted (this is something I learned from some female friends who say they don't want anyone talking to them at the gym, and from myself because the only people that talk to me in random situations are crazy or asking for money).
Being sociable ≠ Being annoying/creepy
That's all about intent. You gauge a response using body language. My gym has a racquetball court. I get asked to play all the time by random people. Be friendly and people will come to you. I had a problem with facial expressions growing up and I worked on mirroring. I mostly do it without thinking these days but it didn't start that way.
You can meet people at the gym. General rule is don't be disruptive.
My issue is with your first sentence (cis white man that is about as just barely straight). With all of the talk about equality, equity, and BS gender roles, I'm still expected to make all of the initial moves and decisions in real life and on apps. However, I'm mildly on the spectrum and my natural tenancy is to be very aggressive in my methods (not in a violent way and not just with people, just mean I am very earnest, locked in, and tenacious with most things I do).
I have never been approached, hit on, or asked out by a women in real life, though I have by men a couple of times. When I'm in public or at a bar I am literally invisible, unless I happen to walk into a women's zone of awareness (not personal space, but the point/distance where they then have to make a judgment as to whether I am a threat or not).
The advantage of online dating is that if I match with someone it's reasonable to assume they are interested in me which puts me past the initial barrier in real life of not being able to tell. At that point I'm pretty OK at interacting with a person and flirting etc. However, my hobbies and the things I would like a partner to enjoy doing with me are very male dominated.
The result of this is that I haven't ever had a partner or dated someone who didn't have crippling anxiety and/or deep self-image issues where they use their partner for all of the validation and structure they haven't figured out how to do from within themselves. Which at least to me makes sense, since women with the same interests as mine are surrounded by men all the time everyday, and so the confident well adjusted women have the metaphorical pick of the litter and probably end up with one of the few not problematic men in that space that are also well adjusted.
I am well aware it's far more complicated than that, and that women face a number of other struggles, but Game Theory does still very much apply, and so as I was saying before despite all of the rhetoric about equity, I still have to play by the old rules while somehow also playing by the new ones at the same time.
It's exhausting.
It sounds like online dating is a boon to you. As far as your hobbies go you should try branching out into less male dominated ones. Sometimes you meet someone that you can spend time in each other's worlds but maintain your own as well. It sounds like you have some real barriers to overcome.
Like I said, it's my only option really, but been doing it when out of a relationship for at least a decade.
Not to be too snarky, I know you are just trying to be helpful, but I have tons of hobbies I enjoy and not enough time and money to enjoy the ones that I do have. I'm not looking for someone that shares my every hobby, but the only women I seem to connect with are of the engineering STEM type, but the interest has always been very one sided.
Another unfortunate part of our current reality is that life at this point almost assumes there are two working people in a household. It can be very difficult just getting daily and weekly responsibilities done with any time left over.
Then being told that despite doing everything society says one should do and be to be desirable to a partner (including being understanding and respectful of others struggles, trauma, neurodiversity, etc.) basically being told I just need to be more social is infuriating. So the fact that I'm introverted and find lots of social interaction taxing is something I need to get over, but I need to just accept that I will never have someone ASK ME out and I need to be patient and understanding with everyone I interact with?
I said, I know you are just trying to be helpful, and this frustration isn't directed at you, but life more generally. It's something I have gotten a lot of and feels a lot like "hopes and prayers". It's a reaction people seem to have wanting to somehow cognitively decouple from the core root cause and find a way to other me and what I need to do so that they don't have to really engage with and think about the cold reality of it all.
Thank you for the well thought out reply. I understand what you are trying to say. The finances and time to pursue love can't just be snatched out of the ether. Do not lose hope and become bitter. The only advice I have left is that if you have trouble being the instigator then the kink community may introduce you to someone more forward.
It's amusing you mention the kink community, because that's kinda where I have been thinking about recently. I'm very much a versatile, but have only ever been the dominate one (I have never knowingly met or interacted with a dominate women that wasn't an obvious scammer). I have always been kink adjacent, meaning people I have dated or know are/were involved in it, but I never have been. I have poked around and found there are some Femdom related meetups and munches in my area, so I do plan on scoping one of them out at some point.
My only real 'hesitation' is just the type of women in my area that tend to be involved in kink in my area tend to be a bit larger and older than I would prefer 😅. Not that I'm shaming them for that, everyone should be comfortable in their own bodies. In fact, I would estimate at least 80% of my partners have weighed more than me while being shorter than me. I'm not actually that picky, I just know that ultimately I would like someone who is at a similar activity level and overall level of fitness. I'm not looking for a super model.
I am exactly average for my height and weight... if it were the 1970s. That eliminates 66% of the population in my area though and is likely something I will likely concede on as I have in the past.
Really, I'm mostly holding out for VR or holographic projections to get to a point where I can reasonably pretend/convince myself (not actually but you know what I mean) it's good enough. Something along the lines of what K has in his apartment in Blade Runner 2049. I'm thinking in like 20-30 years maybe?
Edit: I actually did the math not too long ago pulling data from the most recent census and Pew Research and the number of women that match my criteria and are on dating apps in my area is about 35. Well like 35.6 but I'm not sure if I should count on the double leg amputee or not (joking). That number is likely a little smaller due to some things I couldn't get numbers for.
I see now. That is holding me back by a lot.
The whole fake it till you make it thing can be applicable here but therapy is valid and cheaper than you think. You are worthy and deserving of love.
I strongly recommend being happy, one of the best feelings really. I've tried the other emotions and they just don't feel the same. (But seriously I'm no fun when I'm depressed. People like being around happy people, it's contagious)
Rule 1. Be happy.
Rule 2. Don't be unhappy.
Do a group activity which has members of the demography you’re trying to attract. Show that you’re useful in a social environment and you will gain status and thus attract mates.
That can be anything from environmental protection, sports, politics, arts, music, games, organizing parties.
You forgot the two most important steps:
Otherwise it will not work.
If you mean physical and optical attraction, that can be improved by hygiene, clothing, haircut, exercise, makeup, diet.
Other factors like manners, conversational skills, generosity, outlook, morals, ethics, dance skills, art skills etc. can also be worked on.
Below average looking guys will easily pull women, if they have status and a purpose/passion in life. Status isn’t just money, it can be just being known for being useful in your social circles.
Ugly people have sex and spouses as well.
Yes, the bottom 10% of men have it harder. However most of them can work on themselves to improve their attractiveness immensely.
One advantage men have, is their attractiveness increases with age. For women it goes downhill in their 30s. For men that’s when their peak starts.
I’m now 42 and more women in their late 20s are interested in me than ever before in my life. Single late 30s women are often desperate to find a husband. The older men get, the bigger their dating range becomes. As a rule of thumb men can get women at their age or younger. Women will go for men their age or older. Woman with wrinkles and grey streaks: old hag grandma. Man with wrinkles and grey streaks: handsome and trustworthy.
So if you want to attract the most desirable women, work on yourself until you’re 30 and then start looking for a wife.
Of all that, only hygiene and exercise improve attraction, and it requires going to the gym 6 times a week and using performance enhancing drugs for it to make a difference.
Diet, clothing and haircut are mostly irrelevant. The only things that matter are height (1m80 is the minimum acceptable nowadays), muscles, and having a nice face. All three are required.
Source: I'm very small (1m70) and ugly, and having the ability to bench press my own weight doesn't help at all.
T'es pas petit je fait 1m63 1m70 c'est pas mal a coté x)
OK mais la plupart des ados sont plus grands que moi alors que j'ai le double de leur âge 😅
Your ideas of attractiveness are very skewed. If you only do only dating face and body matter more, because it’s much of what you see. However fashion and displayed activities, and status also play a role. But you might be better off looking for mates elsewhere.
Lots of short men with non athletic bodies and mediocre looks get laid every day.
Body and face beauty certainly helps, but there are diminishing returns. Except of course if you want to date super models.
Not being fat and doing some exercise or sports twice a week already puts you way ahead of the pack.
If you go and play social mixed gender volleyball instead of autistically lifting every day, you will have more opportunities and success.
What do you have to offers partner? Are you fun to hang out with? Do you do fun or interesting activities? Do you perform or make art?
For example: even the most low level DJs or musicians will have more success, than a grumpy loner who asks people if they know all albums of the band shirt they’re wearing.
So you’re short, athletic, and have an ugly face. What about your skills, interests, fashion, and activities?
Plenty of women are much shorter than you. If you live in the Netherlands or Mexico makes a difference.
I'm not overweight. I'm skinny but have been gaining weight over the years. I weigh 60kg for 1m70 (up from 47kg in 2020).
I don't autistically lift every day (although the non-autists that do obviously have more success with women), only twice a week. I also do indoor bouldering, which is a sport with almost 50/50 men and women. I've been going to the same gym for the past 3 years (I don't know a single person there).
As for my hobbies, I play the guitar, love politics (left/far-left), play video games (mostly retro or indie), go to concerts.
Of course, none of that is relevant, because my face makes manhole covers jump in fear, I'm very short (I know women are shorter but they want taller men), and not muscular.
My condolences towards your face.