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Snap bad (lemmy.world)
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[-] bjoern_tantau@swg-empire.de 41 points 2 weeks ago

A magnetised needle and a steady hand is a better package format.

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[-] ptz@dubvee.org 24 points 2 weeks ago

Let the hate of the crowd wash over me, but I don't even like Flatpak, and I've got love-hate (mostly hate) relationship with AppImage as well.

Just give me a system package or a zipped tarball.

In recent years, have had to just get used to needing to build most projects from source.

[-] MoonlightFox@lemmy.world 5 points 2 weeks ago

Why the hate part of AppImage?

[-] bjoern_tantau@swg-empire.de 21 points 2 weeks ago

For me it is the "Windowsy" feeling of downloading an executable from some website. I prefer having all my packages managed in one place.

[-] MoonlightFox@lemmy.world 7 points 2 weeks ago

Makes sense, I kinda like it from a distributor standpoint. Flatpak is my favorite though.

[-] cecilkorik@lemmy.ca 8 points 2 weeks ago

For simple "apps" it is fine, but my computer is not a phone and I don't use it like one. I mostly don't want simple apps that have their own little sandbox to play in.

I want full-scale applications that are so big they have to use system libraries to keep their disk size down. I also don't want them in a sandbox. I want them to have full access to the system to do everything they need to do, I want them to integrate with far-flung parts of the system and other applications too. I only use applications I trust and don't want them constantly pestering me about configuring permissions and access in just the right ways and opening all the right doors and ports and directories to make them work, I trust them by installing them, they have permission, and the easier they make it to access everything I will inevitably be asking them to access, the happier I am.

My practical concern with distribution methods like AppImage and Flatpak is that now I have to do a lot of extra thinking every time I'm installing anything. To pick how I'm going to install something, I have to solve the matrix of "what kind of distribution method do I prefer for this type of software" combined with "what distribution methods are available for this software" and "what versions are the available distribution methods for this software" and "what distribution method provides the best way for this software to get updates".

In the olden days, when the distro's package manager was the only choice, all I had to care about was "is it available in my distro" and the decision tree was complete. I appreciate all the availability of choice that things like AppImage provide, but it doesn't actually make it easier for me, it just makes it easier for the packager of the software. They're doing less, but making more work for me, as a user. Distro packages are a lot of work for the maintainer precisely because they at least make an effort to solve many of these issues for the user. The value-add that maintainers provide is real.

[-] MrQuallzin@lemmy.world 8 points 2 weeks ago

It doesn't sound like they're making more work for you. It sounds like you're making more work for yourself, and it sounds exhausting.

[-] Samueru_sama@programming.dev 7 points 2 weeks ago

I want full-scale applications that are so big they have to use system libraries to keep their disk size down

Linux is in such sad state that dynamic linking is abused to the point that it actually increases the storage usage. Just to name a few examples I know:

most distros ship a full blown libLLVM.so, this library is a massive monolith used for a bunch of stuff, it is also used for compiling and here comes the issue, by default distros build this lib with support for the following targets:

-- Targeting AArch64
-- Targeting AMDGPU
-- Targeting ARM
-- Targeting AVR
-- Targeting BPF
-- Targeting Hexagon
-- Targeting Lanai
-- Targeting LoongArch
-- Targeting Mips
-- Targeting MSP430
-- Targeting NVPTX
-- Targeting PowerPC
-- Targeting RISCV
-- Targeting Sparc
-- Targeting SystemZ
-- Targeting VE
-- Targeting WebAssembly
-- Targeting X86
-- Targeting XCore

Gentoo used to offer you the option to limit the targets and make libLLVM.so much smaller, but now rust applications that link to llvm have issues with this with caused them to remove that feature...

Another is libicudata, that's a 30 MiB lib that all GTK applications end up linking to for nothing, because it is a dependency of libxml2, which distros override to build with icu support (by default this lib does not link to libicudata) and what's more sad is that the depenency to libxml2 comes because of transitive dependency to libappstream, yes that appstream that I don't even know why most applications would need to link to this.

And then there is archlinux that for some reason builds libopus to be 5 MiB when most other distros have this lib <500 KiB

Sure dynamic linking in the case of something like the coreutils, where you are going to have a bunch of small binaries makes sense, except you now have stuff like busybox which is a single static bin that acts as each of the different tools by checking the name of the symlink that launched it and it is very tiny at 1 MiB and it provides all your basic unix tools including a very good shell.

Even Linus was surprised by how much dynamic linking is abused today: https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/CAHk-=whs8QZf3YnifdLv57+FhBi5_WeNTG1B-suOES=RcUSmQg@mail.gmail.com/

To pick how I’m going to install something,

https://github.com/ivan-hc/AM

I have all these applications using 3.2 GIB of storage while the flatpak equivalent actually uses 14 GiB 💀: https://i.imgur.com/lvxjkTI.png

flatpak is actually sold on the idea that shared dependencies are good, you have flatpak runtimes and different flatpaks can share, the problem here is that those runtimes are huge on their own, the gnome runtime is like 2.5 GiB which is very close to all those 57 applications I have as appimage and static binaries.

but it doesn’t actually make it easier for me, it just makes it easier for the packager of the software

Well I no longer have to worry about the following issue:

  • My application breaking because of a distro update, I actually now package kdeconnect as an appimage because a while ago it was broken for 2 months on archlinux. The only app I heavily rely from my distro now is distrobox.

  • I also get the latest updates and fixes as soon as upstream releases a new update, with distro packaging you are waiting a week at best to get updates. And I also heard some horror stories before from a dev where they were told that they had to wait to push an update for their distro package and the only way to speed it up was if it was a security fix.

  • And not only you have to make sure the app is available in your distro packages, you also have to make sure it is not abandoned, I had this issue with voidlinux when I discovered the deadbeef package was insanely out of date.

  • Another issue I have with distro packages in general is that everything needs elevated rights to be installed, I actually often hear this complains from linux newbies that they need to type sudo for everything and it doesn't have to be this way, AM itself can be installed as appman which makes it able to work on your HOME with all its features. And you can take your HOME and drop it in any other distro and be ready to go as well.

[-] Samueru_sama@programming.dev 4 points 2 weeks ago

omg I cannot fucking believe that while I was typing this I just saw another distro package nonsense:

There is this very good tool called soar which I use for static binaries. (It also has support for appimages but to be honest it is not as good as AM rn).

Well we just got a complain that fastfetch is not displaying the package count of soar, which fastfetch is able to do.

Turns out this is because the archlinux package is built without SQLITE3 which is needed for that feature to work 😫

And what's worse is that account registrations are disabled in the archlinux gitlab, so I have to jump thru some hoops to get a basic bug report filed...

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[-] jj4211@lemmy.world 5 points 2 weeks ago

I'd say that complete lack of a single consistent way to manage updates.

I really don't feel having to micromanage each piece of software.

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[-] danhab99@programming.dev 19 points 2 weeks ago

Nix is just across the street sipping tea because it understands what it is and is at peace with the chaotic world around it.

[-] Venus_Ziegenfalle@feddit.org 10 points 2 weeks ago

Gentoo is too busy compiling to notice what's going on around it

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[-] jaybone@lemmy.zip 17 points 2 weeks ago

Are there enough watermarks on this meme? At least we got reddit covered.

[-] forrcaho@lemmy.world 17 points 2 weeks ago

AppImage is the no-nonsense universal package format.

[-] JakobDev@feddit.org 10 points 2 weeks ago

AppImages have a lot of problems

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[-] Abnorc@lemm.ee 14 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

It's not about the package management method that we use. It's about the friends and enemies we made along the way (while arguing about package management.)

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[-] blarth@thelemmy.club 14 points 2 weeks ago

I need nothing but apt or dnf. Miss me with that other junk.

[-] null@slrpnk.net 14 points 2 weeks ago

Weird way to spell pacman

[-] Ging@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 points 2 weeks ago

Muh portage tho😲

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[-] srestegosaurio@lemmy.dbzer0.com 12 points 1 week ago

Flatpak and SystemD Portable services are actually pretty good.

That's the direction I see Linux going. I personally use NixOS because I am sad.

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[-] LeFantome@programming.dev 9 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

Tar is not a package manager, it is just a packaging format. AppImage has the same problem.

Flatpak is a bit of a crappy package manager but at least it is one. And, due to its use of container technology, it allows the same packages to run on any Linux kernel (any Linux distro). That is pretty useful.

Of the other package managers, apk 3 is my favourite but the only distro that uses it is Chimera Linux. Pacman is good. dnf / RPM is ok. apt / deb is in last place for me. The recent Ubuntu 25.04 launch snafu illustrates some of the problems with apt. The first Linus Tech Tips Linux challenge really highlighted the dangers of apt.

I only used snap briefly but instantly hated it. Fstab was a mess. It was slow. It was proprietary. I fled before I could form an educated opinion.

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[-] Bishma@discuss.tchncs.de 8 points 2 weeks ago

A stab at my personal ranking: .deb > appimage > flatpack > curling a shell script

I can't help but love a .deb file (even when not via repo), I've almost exclusively used Debian and it derivatives since the late 90s. And snap isn't on the list because it got stored in a loopback device I removed.

[-] miguel@fedia.io 4 points 2 weeks ago

I just recently de-snapped yet another ubuntu system. Couldn't agree more. I use debian standard for all of my stuff, and I agree with your ranking.

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[-] phoenixz@lemmy.ca 8 points 2 weeks ago

That's because we are...

If .y Firefox will once again be updated without asking me and then refusing to open any page without a restart I'll fucking lose it

[-] Sonotsugipaa@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 points 2 weeks ago

Wait hold on wait, does that bullshit have something with Firefox being distributed through Snap?

If it does, I'm going to sn... also fucking lose it

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[-] unknown1234_5@kbin.earth 7 points 2 weeks ago

my issue with snaps is honestly just that they are controlled too much by just one entity (canonical) and there is no reason for them to exist because flatpak already does everything they do.

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[-] MehBlah@lemmy.world 7 points 2 weeks ago

Like a bunch of old farts in a coffee shop arguing over which truck brand is better.

[-] FooBarrington@lemmy.world 7 points 2 weeks ago

Yeah, but Snap is the equivalent of Tesla...

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[-] callyral@pawb.social 6 points 2 weeks ago

laughs in Nix and NixOS

[-] procapra@lemm.ee 6 points 2 weeks ago

If flatpak didn't make me put the entirety of KDE onto my system (thats an exaggeration but you know what I mean) I'd gladly crown it king of the package managers.

[-] rtxn@lemmy.world 15 points 2 weeks ago

I just want to point out the dependencies of Konsole (arguably a small and simple application in concept): glibc gcc-libs icu kbookmarks kcolorscheme kconfig kconfigwidgets kcoreaddons kcrash kdbusaddons kglobalaccel kguiaddons ki18n kiconthemes kio knewstuff knotifications knotifyconfig kparts kpty kservice ktextwidgets kwidgetsaddons kwindowsystem kxmlgui qt6-5compat qt6-base qt6-multimedia sh.

[-] OsrsNeedsF2P@lemmy.ml 13 points 2 weeks ago

Psst .. the first KDE app you installed via your package manager also put "the entirety of KDE" onto your system.

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[-] sensiblepuffin@lemmy.funami.tech 11 points 2 weeks ago

Plus make it hell on earth to a) access drives other than the one flatpak is installed on, b) interoperate with non-flatpak applications, and c) retain any amount of free space on my drives (exaggeration for effect).

[-] JayDee@lemmy.sdf.org 5 points 2 weeks ago

Yeah, flatseal should come stock with flatpak IMO. You will have to configure many apps to get them to play nice with your system.

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[-] Fizz@lemmy.nz 6 points 2 weeks ago

Hadn't snap fixed a lot of the complaints people initially had?

[-] blind3rdeye@lemm.ee 23 points 2 weeks ago

Probably, but the stink will linger for quite a long time.

There's a burger place near my house that I use to go to almost every week. But then the quality started going down, and I stopped going there. That was two years ago. Maybe they fixed the problems, but I'm not going to know - because I no longer go there. Snap is like that.

[-] UnfortunateShort@lemmy.world 10 points 2 weeks ago

I think the main complaint is that it seems like Canonical is trying take control of Linux packaging. Don't they handle their stuff in a way that pretty much prevents third party 'Snap Stores'? Like, their backend being closed source and their software only accepting their own signatures?

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[-] SwingingTheLamp@midwest.social 5 points 2 weeks ago

Has it? My complaints are: I have to use VPN software for work that replaces /etc/resolve.conf with a symlink to another location, one that sandboxed snaps can't access. There's no way to grant them access; the "slots" that you can connect are fixed and pre-defined. You can't even configure the file path; it's defined right in the source code. Not even as a #define, but the string literal "/etc/resolve.conf". That seems like poor practice, but I guess they're not going for portability.

Also, I have /usr and /var on different media, chosen for suitability of purpose, and sized appropriately. Then, along comes snap, violating the File Hierarchy Standard by filling up /var with application software.

Minor annoyances are the ~/snap folder, and all of the mounted loopback filesystems which make reading the mtab difficult.

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this post was submitted on 29 Apr 2025
327 points (97.9% liked)

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