If gamers are bitching about a game not adding a whole new island, you should ignore them because they're clearly idiots.
If gamers are bitching about your menu system being navigable by someone with less than a PhD (cough, Risk of Rain 2 on console, cough), and you're estimating that will take 6 months to fix, then that's because you (as a company) coded your software badly.
That’s right. Still, it could take more than 6 months to make it right.
6 months doesn't sound unrealistic for re-doing a menu system. Designing, reworking art, re-programming workflows and then testing everything can take several months. Even just the logistics of releasing it after it's done, that alone can take a month.
Yes, it is possible to setup everything in a very generic way that is data-driven, but that also is a lot of work that has to be prioritized with the scope of the project and the team members available.
menu system
I think you are vastly underestimating how complicated menu systems and UI in games are. I have a friend who works as a professional game developer in a small studio and far as I heard, he's spent most of his time just working on their UI/menus.
Changing these things is neither easy nor fast.
Correct. Once again, Gamers take developers for granted because something LOOKS like it's simple, but it rarely ever is. It's hella frustrating to deal with this every day as a dev, but I guess that's what you sign up for in this line of work.
If you're spending months on your menu system, you're doing something wrong. Bang it out in a few days and revisit just prior to launch. It's really important because it's the first thing players use, but it can also be overhauled late in development because it doesn't impact much.
I would understand if it was a complex in-game menu system for a grand strategy or 4x game or something, not for a game launch menu. Get your UX team to iterate a bit during development and have devs throw it together once the major features are ready and it's mostly time for bug fixing and polish.
revisit just prior to launch
This is simply not feasible - menus include pause menus, talent trees, inventories, all that kind of stuff. All of that is necessary for proper gameplay testing. You can't just "bang that out in a few days".
I'm sorry, but this idea that any of this is easy enough to do in a few days and not crucial enough to iterate on throughout development instead of just doing it at the end, is exactly the kind of naive attitude that the Helldivers and Palworld devs are talking about.
The ROR2 new game menu has only a few elements:
That's it.
I know it isn't completely trivial, but as someone with many years of experience making (small) indie games, I know for a fact that a menu like that it should only be changing a few global variables. It's a frontend with very little backend to consider.
Something like that is not a year's work. I could agree with a month, and even at that, most of it will be testing, not design.
And tbh - the main problem with it isn't even its design (the design is fine) just its controls. You inexplicably have to use the D-pad for character select, but the analog stick for everything else, apart from switching to difficulty select with R2. Why not navigate the whole menu with either D-pad or left stick? That should only take a week to fix at the absolute maximum, unless they've managed to tie the code in a spaghettified knot that's unnecessarily coupled with actual game mechanics.
AAA gamedev here. I agree in principle with the gamefeel critiques, but I'd like to bring up that scale absolutely matters here. Every degree of complexity your codebase adds can cause cascading issues, which is one of the million reasons indie devs are told by everyone to keep their game scope small. Not saying these kinds of games shouldn't improve, but it's not as trivial as it might appearr.
if it takes you 6 months to add a new fundamental game mechanic then thats understandable
if it takes you 6 months to remove an unnecessary popup then youre incompetent. (looking at you, Hunt Showdown)
Lol hunt takes six months dev time to make the ui twice as worse
UI is incredibly complex under the hood. Cryengine is also difficult to work in. There are tons of reasons games with distinct outstanding features don't switch engines, though, and it's usually due to the specific features said engine provides, no matter how difficult it becomes to work with as a legacy system over the years.
But other media said that coding is as simple as asking couple of question on chat.
Copilot, add destructible terrain to my game please
I dont think anyone will claim that destructible terrain is an easy addition.
Sure it is, you just implement depth map deformation into the static terrain, totally doable! Then you just tie in a strain system to all the game's models so they fall when they don't have enough support, then add destruction animations for every static model and falling animations for every character. Totally easy, they had that back when the original Red Faction came out for PS2, the devs are just lazy! /s
You say that, but...
That's nothing new.
Gamers who don't know any programming, or maybe made a little utility for themselves. Looovee to bring out the old "just change one line of code", "just add this model", etc. to alter something in a game.
They literally do not understand how complex systems become, specially in online multiplayer games. Riot had issues with their spaghetti code, and people were crawling over eachother to explain how "easy" it would be to just change an ability. Without realizing that it could impact and potentially break half a dozen other abilities.
Even if you're an actual software dev, it's still pretty much impossible to guess how much work something is without knowing the codebase intimately.
When a dev with game dev experience says something should be easy to fix, it's under the assumption of a reasonable code base. Most games are built off of common engines and you can sometimes infer how things are likely organized if you track how bugs are introduced, how objects interact, how things are loaded, etc...
When something is a 1 day bugfix under ideal conditions, saying it will take 6+ months is admitting one of:
Not that any of those is completely undefendable or pure malpractice, but saying it "can't" be done or blaming complexity is often a cop out.
In the real world there is no entirely reasonable code base. There's always going to be some aspects of it that are kind of shit, because you intended to do X but then had to change to doing Y, and you have not had time or sufficient reason to properly rewrite everything to reflect that.
We tend to underestimate how long things will take, precisely because when we imagine someone doing them we think of the ideal case, where everything is reasonable and goes well. Which is pretty much guaranteed to not be the case whenever you do anything complex.
I agree, real code always has tradeoffs. But there's a difference between a conceptually simple change taking 3 weeks longer than planned and 6 months. The reality is game code is almost always junk and devs have no incentive to do better.
Getting a feature functional and out for launch day is the priority because you don't have any cash flow until then. This has been exacerbated with digital distribution encouraging a ship-now-fix-later mentality.
This means game devs don't generally have experience with large scale, living codebases. Code quality and stability doesn't bring in any money, customer retention is irrelevant unless you're making an mmo.
And games are usually one and done, so there's even less motivation to write sustainable code.
Diablo4 has memory leak issues. As a software engineer myself, I just don't see any excuse for a game this long in production to have memory leak problems.
There is no doubt that a lot of games are getting rushed without being properly tested.
Tbf memory leaks can be very hard to diagnose and can also be hard to avoid in any software written in a language like C++, which is probably what Diablo 4 is written in.
In large scale online games you have issues ranging from obscure things causing memory leaks based on drivers, hardware combinations, etc. and all the way to basic things getting overlooked. One of my favorite examples being GTA5 online.
They forgot to update a function from early testing, and it was in the game for about a decade before someone else debugged the launch process. And then realized that it was going through the entire comparison file for each item it checked on the local list. So "changing a few lines" ended up reducing initial load times by up to 70% depending on the cpu and storage media.
EDIT: I've been drinking and probably misreemebred parts, so here is the post about how he found the issue
That's kind of a funny example because, on a quick skim, nothing he did was exceptionally clever or unusual (other than workarounds for not having source code). R* basically paid him 10k for some basic profiling that they never bothered to do.
Well why didn't you start 6 months ago. It's not my problem. I paid full price. If you wanna be left the fuck alone sell games for $15 and take your time no one will bother you. When you start asking $80 a game the price sets expectations. Devs lack of planning is not my problem as a consumer.
Gamer who doesn't understand how gamedev works gets mad at guy telling them they don't get how gamedev works, demanding their treats get here, right now anyway after being told it actually takes a bit to make. News at 11.
Found the lazy dev
Yeah, you're probably right, the video game you personally made is probably better and we're just lazy. BTW I demand 20 hours of brand-new content to be released next week, and it better be cutting-edge, uniquely interesting and creative, bug-free and $4.99, or else you're a lazy dev, too.
It's genuinely funny watching these people learn absolutely nothing when slapped in the face with hard facts.
Lazy and salty hell of a combo
Dumb and annoying is worse.
I mean, some of the most experienced and successful devs in the world are telling you (some random guy) these things bluntly in the article, and you are proving their point for them by acting how you're acting.
Congrats on being a sentient stereotype with a keyboard and access to the internet, I guess?
For Palworld, a new island takes 6 months, per the article. Probably talking about Sakurajima and the big southern one. That makes sense, since it's not just putting stuff there and calling it a day on the first finished thing, some level design has to happen so the place makes sense and doesn't feel super boring to explore.
It would also be great if devs added things during development that should simply be there at launch. Instead of that, shit gets rushed out the door with promises of future fixes and updates. And then devs get all huffy when people rightfully ask for things to be added that are supposed to be basic launch features…
What I don't understand is why do developers make bad games? They should just make good games instead.
Gamers want good games, not bad games.
I was once building a game where a dinky little neon space fighter zips around the field shooting down enemies that spawn in until the boss. Everything was going great, the engine was handling large number speeds, the parallax background I custom coded with an rng star map worked perfect, right up until I tried to implement enemy tracking of the player: that shit would not work no matter how hard I tried.
I was about to share the old demo for you dudes to try but looks like I've lost the .pck file associated with the Godot executable or the embedded pck is no longer recognized.
Don't compare actual games to scams.
I mean, it really depends on how you define scam. If you're so loose with the definition that you would have considered No Man's Sky a "scam" when it first released, then I can understand that.
Otherwise it's not really a scam. There's a free trial going on right now in Star Citizen.You're free to check out the game for yourself. It's in a really good state compared to what we've previously seen (not even close to bug free, but way more playable than before).
Well in Helldivers 2s case, its not helpful that they picked to use a dead game engine. Autodesk Stingray has been dead for a while.
Also, I might agree except that solo indie devs in their basement can add many basic features in 6 months time, not just one. I get that some features, like new maps, mechanics, or characters take time. But for example, when a game mechanic already exists elsewhere in a game but not in a different part (for example, a flashlight attachment on one gun but not a different gun), there is not a thing in the world that will convince me that would take 6 months to add. And if it would take 6 months to add, that is entirely due to laziness or incompetence.
Sure, larger businesses have more developers to get more work done. But there comes a time when throwing new developers at a problem convolutes the process and actually slows things down more than it helps.
Something that seems simple to you like a flashlight attachment may not be so simple under the hood.
Solo indie devs have an advantage because they're familiar with all of the code. They're the ones that wrote it.
They don't need to learn a new part of the code when making fixes or changes. They don't need to explain to another dev that "you don't change how this information is passed in here because you'll need it to look just like that in some other section that you'll never touch".
Additionally any decisions/changes/etc. are all decided by one person, no need for meetings to get everyone on board and explain exactly what you want to do. No need to try to get everyone to understand your vision for what you want to happen.
A famous comic might explain this process a little better:
Mostly agree, 98% of requests are unrealistic. Most of these requests are not even simple.
But many times, things ARE fucked. And when that happen - dear gamers, don't curse devs, as a team. There was shitty ceo, who couldnt make a straight decision or changed them 200 times a day, because felt some popular new feature totally must be in the game, that ruined whole concept. Many times, the concept were shitty from the start, then blame director of that. Even more often, publishers pushes their financial decision over dev team (hello Helldivers2 vs Sony). Yet another time, some lawsuit shitstorm happens, that makes devs scrap something (hello Palworlds vs big_n). And many times, its all together.
I wish my clients would understand that, and my code is a lot simpler than a video game.
I built an API connector for work (I'm a hobbyist, not a pro) to download what is the most common cargo transported by trucking companies from the DoT database. Everyone complained because they had to enter the company names correctly into a CSV as it wouldn't accept typos or do fuzzy matching, nor could it automatically determine which was the head office of a company, only return a list of all of the offices.
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