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The bare minimum expected of a leader of the American left, and a democratic socialist, should be a willingness to say “I endorse the conclusion of mainstream human rights organizations.” Why wouldn’t Sanders be willing to do that? He says that it doesn’t really matter “what you call it,” because it’s horrific. But clearly it does matter to Sanders, because he is making a choice not to use the same language as the human rights organizations. Why is he making that choice? He has not explained.

Sanders is right that the more important debate is about actions rather than language. But genocide is also the supreme crime against humanity, and it is so unanimously reviled that it makes a difference whether we use the term. For instance: there might be a debate over whether we should cut off weapons to a state that has “engaged in war crimes.” (How many? Are they aberrations or policy?) The Allied powers in World War II engaged in war crimes, and many Americans think war crimes can be justified in the service of a noble end. But there can be no debate over whether we should ever arm a state that has engaged in genocide. Genocide has no justification, no mitigation. If a state is committing it, all ties should be cut with that state.

Actually, we can see the difference in Bernie Sanders’ own policy response to Israel’s crimes. He told CNN that “your taxpayer dollars” should not go to support a “horror.” This is true. Sanders, to his credit, has repeatedly proposed a bill that would cut off a certain amount of weapons sales to Israel. Democratic opinion has so soured on Israel that Sanders’ bill attracted a record amount of Democratic support (27 senators, more than half the caucus.) But notably, Sanders’ bill only cuts off “offensive” weapons to Israel, leaving “defensive” weapons sales intact.

We might think that it’s perfectly fine to sell “defensive” weapons. Israel’s “Iron Dome” system, which U.S. taxpayers help pay for, protects the country against incoming missiles, and protection against incoming missiles is surely a good and noble thing. But notably, we have not bought Hamas its own “iron dome.” Or Iran. Or Russia. This is because we do not support the causes for which they fight. We understand in these cases that to help the “defense” is to help the “offense.” If Russia is protected from Ukrainian missiles, it will fight Ukraine more effectively. Likewise, if Israel is protected from Hamas rocket fire, but Gaza is not protected from Israeli missiles, the balance of arms is tilted toward Israel, and they can pulverize Gaza without Hamas being able to inflict similar damage in response.

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[-] TranscendentalEmpire@lemmy.today 7 points 2 weeks ago

Tbh, I think a lot of older Jewish people are in a tremendous amount of self denial about the whole scenario. The Jewish community spent generations drilling the idea that being Jewish was basically an antonym to genocide.

I recently listened to an interview of a Jewish professor who specializes in genocide study who talked about his initial internal conflict with admitting what he was witnessing was genocide. The guy did his best not to cry throughout the interview and failed from doing so a couple times. You could still see that he was struggling with a crisis of consciousness and identity, and it was admirable he could overcome it with academic integrity.

It's still not an excuse, but I think it's at least understandable that a people who built a cultural touchstone around their own genocide are largely in a state of disbelief that they are now participating in one.

[-] HK65@sopuli.xyz 1 points 2 weeks ago

that being Jewish was basically an antonym to genocide.

I've heard a good while ago from a respected Jewish scholar that the main thing tying Jewish culture together is not language or religion, but the shared experience of the Holocaust.

This kinda means that a Jewish state committing genocide has a nonzero chance of erasing the Jewish identity.

[-] cattywampas@midwest.social 1 points 2 weeks ago

To add to this, genocide is actually a pretty wide term with a lot of different ways if manifests in the real world. There's everything from the Holocaust, European colonization of the Americas, to the current situation in Palestine. I think it's an easy trap for people to fall into to say that because situations aren't exactly equal that one is a genocide and one is not.

[-] heyWhatsay@slrpnk.net 4 points 2 weeks ago

You want to really call it out? Call it a Zionist Holocaust

[-] MuskyMelon@lemmy.world 2 points 2 weeks ago

Just holocaust. They don't deserve owning that term anymore.

[-] phutatorius@lemmy.zip 1 points 1 week ago

They don’t deserve owning that term anymore.

It was first used in the modern context by a British journalist covering the Turkish genocide of the Armenians, long before the Shoah happened.

That journalist's name was Winston Churchill.

[-] Treczoks@lemmy.world 3 points 2 weeks ago

AIPAC has made calling the Gaza Holocaust a genocide illegal.

[-] Treczoks@lemmy.world 2 points 1 week ago

They don't calling it genocide as they are aiding and abetting it.

[-] ToadOfHypnosis@lemmy.world 2 points 2 weeks ago
[-] RangerAndTheCat@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 2 weeks ago

AIPAC is the biggest donor to both parties and institutions in the US. Pretty much, Israel has become a vital point in our economy, which is also known as the military industrial complex system, which keeps America running and any sort of deviation that tries to change or move it towards the lap, just gets ratcheted back towards the right slowly hence why the most of Europe views our left as center/right instead of the alternative. Literally speaking out of any sort of societal benefit for anybody get you label of a dangerous communist and a threat to democracy here in America becausewe are vastly under educated because it’s been part of the Republican plan to define education since I think it was a Nixon who was afraid of educated because it turns us into “hippies” Who generally don’t prefer war and that’s pretty much what we run on as of now not saying it’s right, not saying things can’t change But as of right now, it is basically ice-skating uphill in America, trying to get anything done that might preserve but a little erosion of democracywe have left

[-] theneverfox@pawb.social 2 points 2 weeks ago

I think there's a pretty simple reason... People are fucking terrified. They try to downplay it in their heads, they shut down, they just stop listening. They make excuses for how it couldn't happen to them, that the victims must've done something wrong to invite disaster

It's the same thing with global warming. We're so screwed, millions, maybe billions are going to die from it in our lifetimes - and we're still not really fixing the problem

You can tell people isolated events and facts, one at a time, and hope they realize the urgency themselves after learning so many bite sized snapshots

Is it good messaging? IDK, it didn't really communicate the urgency of climate change at the right moment

But if you use a word like genocide, even very technically, you lose the sheep. People already on your side are what, going to be suddenly happy you're doing enough?

[-] 3abas@lemmy.world 3 points 2 weeks ago

Whitewashing bullshit. They supported the genocide enthusiastically and Israel has already demonstrated that they will spend millions on small town local elections to out anybody that speaks up. They aren't scared to admit genocide is happening because of mental blocks, they are afraid of losing their AIPAC checks and positions of power.

This is Joe Biden's genocide after all, and Kamala lost because she doubled down and called for the most lethal military, and you're still here making excuses and selling the Democrats as too good hearted to handle the truth... No! They support every bit of it until it's clear to them that the people are more powerful than Israel lobbying and checks. That'll never happen when you keep giving them excuses.

[-] theneverfox@pawb.social 0 points 2 weeks ago

I'm not white washing anyone, I'm saying there's no benefit for a progressive to use the term genocide. They need to describe a genocide viscerally, or use some new messaging strategy with or without the word

And I sure as hell wouldn't call Democrats progressives, I'm not defending them. They're not on our side... Obviously

I'm talking about progressives like my boy Mumdani, I'm saying he doesn't need to use the term genocide. It's enough to declare support for Palestinians and refuse to kiss the APAC ring.

Winning matters. To do that, your messaging needs to meet the moment correctly...I don't give a shit what words they say, I want fighters with actual ideals in every goddamn office

And frankly, they're ramping up to a genocide on American soil. I feel for the Palestinians, but to help them we've got to put on our oxygen masks first... We have to take back control for many reasons, but I'm genuinely terrified that almost no one seems to be acknowledging they're building concentration camps where people started dying on day 3.

If I can't scream imminent genocide for that, and it just makes people shut down, then I get why maybe genocide isn't a useful word to throw around, no matter how true it might be

[-] 3abas@lemmy.world 1 points 2 weeks ago

Winning matters. To do that, your messaging needs to meet the moment correctly...I don't give a shit what words they say, I want fighters with actual ideals in every goddamn office

The data is out, we can stop pretending. Kamala lost because of her stance on Gaza, people didn't vote for Trump, they simply rejected the Democrats.

If winning matters, they would call this what it is, and they would win in landslides. But the AIPAC checks are way more exciting, and they're okay not winning because they count on people voting for them when they are sick of the other side.

Too bad people may not be able to vote again. And there's certainly been an awakening where people WILL NEVER vote for either party again, not even pragmatically, and Democrats are still keeping their head in the sand and pretending like everything is still the same.

The idea of lesser evil has been shattered, their support for progressive causes being fake became obvious when Kamala responded to demand for ending the genocide by running a right wing campaign. George W. Bush had a campaign that was literally more liberal and left of Kamala's. If you still think Democrats winning is a good thing, your eyes are not open yet.

[-] theneverfox@pawb.social 1 points 2 weeks ago

The fuck are you talking about?

Progressives. Everyone else is the enemy.

You're talking past me, and I don't appreciate it

[-] Guidy@lemmy.world 1 points 1 week ago

You fuckers help elect Trump over this issue.

How’d that help your cause? Gaza is doing great under Trump, right? Aren’t you glad you didn’t vote for Harris, now?

Your principled stand made the whole world objectively worse and I’m sure at least some of you are happy with that.

I vote democrat and you managed to turn me against your cause, congratulations.

[-] ABetterTomorrow@sh.itjust.works 1 points 2 weeks ago

Why is there a photo of Bernie? I’m sure he mentioned it a few times.

[-] Soulg@ani.social 1 points 2 weeks ago

Despite being on the correct side of the issue in every other way, he has been resisting calling it a genocide outright.

[-] FishFace@lemmy.world 1 points 2 weeks ago

We might think that it’s perfectly fine to sell “defensive” weapons. Israel’s “Iron Dome” system, which U.S. taxpayers help pay for, protects the country against incoming missiles, and protection against incoming missiles is surely a good and noble thing. But notably, we have not bought Hamas its own “iron dome.” Or Iran. Or Russia. This is because we do not support the causes for which they fight. We understand in these cases that to help the “defense” is to help the “offense.” If Russia is protected from Ukrainian missiles, it will fight Ukraine more effectively. Likewise, if Israel is protected from Hamas rocket fire, but Gaza is not protected from Israeli missiles, the balance of arms is tilted toward Israel, and they can pulverize Gaza without Hamas being able to inflict similar damage in response.

But Hamas exclusively fires inaccurate unguided missiles into Israel. If the West funded a similar system for Russia, it would be used to defend the military and industrial targets that Ukraine is attempting to strike, not just civilians. In addition, the bulk of funding for Iron Dome was given at a time when, while Israel was justifiably criticised for breaches of international law, it was not committing a genocide, and it could be said that it was the better party to support. The other party, Hamas, has always been explicitly genocidal.

There is a lot of inertia here: it will take time (and would, even in the absence of AIPAC) for the atrocities to change minds.

[-] NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io 0 points 2 weeks ago

If the West funded a similar system for Russia, it would be used to defend the military and industrial targets that Ukraine is attempting to strike, not just civilians

Like Israel's Iron Dome does when Yemen or Iran attack?

In addition, the bulk of funding for Iron Dome was given at a time when, while Israel was justifiably criticised for breaches of international law, it was not committing a genocide, and it could be said that it was the better party to support.

How in the hell is the party committing ethnic cleansing, Apartheid and deliberately starving children the "better party to support"? And in the first place, who the hell said anything about supporting Hamas? There's a myriad of options other than supporting Hamas that don't entail supporting an Apartheid Nazi state.

[-] FishFace@lemmy.world 0 points 1 week ago

Like Israel’s Iron Dome does when Yemen or Iran attack?

Iran and Yemen aren't Palestine, so the problems we have with Israel's war against Palestine and Palestinians don't apply there. Unless, that is, you aren't on the side of Palestinians at all, but instead just want to see Israel defeated. But I chipped in to explain how it made sense for the US to fund Iron Dome, so we have to start from a point of view that makes at least some sense with respect to how the US saw the world then and wanting to destroy Israel is not that.

How in the hell is the party committing ethnic cleansing, Apartheid and deliberately starving children the “better party to support”? And in the first place, who the hell said anything about supporting Hamas? There’s a myriad of options other than supporting Hamas that don’t entail supporting an Apartheid Nazi state.

The situation in 2011 (when Iron Dome's development started) was not this one, so start there.

I would agree with the OP that funding Iron Dome now, for a genocidal state, would be a huge error.

[-] NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io 1 points 1 week ago

Iran and Yemen aren't Palestine, so the problems we have with Israel's war against Palestine and Palestinians don't apply there.

They do. Israeli aggression is most intense in Palestine, but it's not exactly a saint with its other neighbors.

Unless, that is, you aren't on the side of Palestinians at all, but instead just want to see Israel defeated

I do want to see Israel defeated because they keep fucking up everything for everyone else, especially but not only Palestinians, and because Apartheid states shouldn't exist. Your point?

The situation in 2011 (when Iron Dome's development started) was not this one, so start there.

It was. Israel has been deliberately keeping Gaza under chronic malnutrition and on the brink of economic collapse for two decades, and settlements constitute ethnic cleansing. The Gaza genocide is the worst single crime Israel has committed in its history, but it's far from the only one.

[-] FishFace@lemmy.world 0 points 1 week ago

They do. Israeli aggression is most intense in Palestine, but it’s not exactly a saint with its other neighbors.

Israeli aggression towards Palestine is by far the most egregious because they have been performing a slow-motion annexation of it, and all the problems that come with that. Palestine had little ability to retaliate (though it did) so Israel's actions were grossly disproportionate. But this is not nearly so true with other states in the region, which have historically had a military and foreign policy posture of wanting Israel's complete destruction, and made strikes, wars and statements to that effect.

As far as our own geopolitical attitudes in the West are concerned, support for Israeli attacks on Iran has historically been an easy calculation to make because of how disastrous it would be for Iran to have a nuclear weapon. You can see this in the rhetoric now where even those who condemn Israel for attacking Iran recently, and condemn Trump for dismantling the one thing that seemed likely to keep Iran nuke-free, say that it nevertheless has to remain the goal.

I do want to see Israel defeated because they keep fucking up everything for everyone else, especially but not only Palestinians, and because Apartheid states shouldn’t exist. Your point?

My point is that you (and other people in this thread) seem motivated more out of a desire to see the destruction of the state of Israel than out of a desire for justice and a world free of ethnic cleansing.

Israel has been deliberately keeping Gaza under chronic malnutrition and on the brink of economic collapse for two decades, and settlements constitute ethnic cleansing.

I won't disagree that Israel has been breaking international law for decades and other countries should have been more forceful about that. That doesn't mean that helping to protect Israeli civilians from rocket attacks was the wrong thing to do.

[-] NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io 1 points 1 week ago

But this is not nearly so true with other states in the region, which have historically had a military and foreign policy posture of wanting Israel's complete destruction, and made strikes, wars and statements to that effect.

Setting aside that that's not at all true, what's wrong with opposing a state committing and built on Apartheid and ethnic cleansing? Do you think the appropriate response to these actions is to do nothing?

how disastrous it would be for Iran to have a nuclear weapon

How the fuck does that lead to supporting Israel against Iran when Iran has been nothing if not cooperative with the international community on the subject? Nobody, literally nobody other than Netanyahu himself thinks Iran is trying to build nukes. Also why would Iran having nukes be more disastrous than Israel having them?

My point is that you (and other people in this thread) seem motivated more out of a desire to see the destruction of the state of Israel than out of a desire for justice and a world free of ethnic cleansing.

Because?

That doesn't mean that helping to protect Israeli civilians from rocket attacks was the wrong thing to do.

And do you not see how that "protection" directly supports Israel's subjugation of Palestinians?

[-] FishFace@lemmy.world 1 points 1 week ago

How the fuck does that lead to supporting Israel against Iran when Iran has been nothing if not cooperative with the international community on the subject? Nobody, literally nobody other than Netanyahu himself thinks Iran is trying to build nukes. Also why would Iran having nukes be more disastrous than Israel having them?

This is blatantly false - most Western assessment seem to have been that (after Trump unilaterally ended the deal) Iran was enriching way beyond what is necessary for civilian use.

Israel, despite its faults, is a democracy. Its genocidal ambitions have been restricted to Palestine - unlike Iran's. Israel also already has nukes (probably) - this question is not one of the lesser evil.

Because?

Because they state outright they want to see Israel destroyed.

And do you not see how that “protection” directly supports Israel’s subjugation of Palestinians?

"Directly" is wrong. It indirectly helps Israel's illegal actions against Palestinians - and that difference between direct and indirect help is the key to understanding this.

[-] IndustryStandard@lemmy.world 0 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

Hamas target military bases by calculating the projectile trajectory.

[-] FishFace@lemmy.world 0 points 2 weeks ago

Ah yes, very calculated

Hamas' rockets generally can't even hit a town-sized target. Many fall within Gaza or on farmland.

[-] IndustryStandard@lemmy.world 0 points 2 weeks ago
[-] FishFace@lemmy.world 0 points 2 weeks ago

Are you using an incident in which four people were killed in an attack which also hit a kibbutz and "a building near an outpost" to argue that Hamas' rocket attacks are, overall, accurate?

Literally nobody, including Hamas, thinks that Hamas is able to launch accurate strikes. Then Hamas leader Khalid Mishal implicitly agreeing that, in 2014, Hamas did not have this capability.

[-] IndustryStandard@lemmy.world 1 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

Israel should not build their houses near military bases then. Human shields.

Hamas rockets are more accurate than Israeli F35s

[-] FishFace@lemmy.world 0 points 1 week ago

I asked a pretty easy question. The fact that you don't want to answer it says it all: you know as well as everyone else that Hamas' attacks are indiscriminate, but whether because of the recent ethnic cleansing by Israel, or because of longer-standing views on the conflict, you are only willing to condemn one party.

Maybe you can use this perspective to help realise why your political leaders are also only willing to properly condemn one party.

[-] IndustryStandard@lemmy.world 1 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

You did not ask a question you pivoted because you got caught out.

Hamas rockets make far less civilian casualties than Israeli F35 jets. That is a fact. Are you denying it?

[-] FishFace@lemmy.world 1 points 1 week ago

I'll give you a straight answer after you give me one :) Here's the question again so you don't have to go digging:

Are you using an incident in which four people were killed in an attack which also hit a kibbutz and “a building near an outpost” to argue that Hamas’ rocket attacks are, overall, accurate?

[-] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 0 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

Israel’s “Iron Dome” system, which U.S. taxpayers help pay for, protects the country against incoming missiles

Haven't Yemen and Iran effectively debunked this claim? The missile shield is good at knocking down the odd munition from Lebanon or Syria, but it collapses in the face of a coordinated, continuous salvo by a sophisticated attacker.

What effectively curtailed the Israel-Iran ten day war was the consistency with which Iran's bombs penetrated Israel's defenses. As soon as the Israelis realized Iran could keep hitting back, they signed a ceasefire.

while Israel was justifiably criticised for breaches of international law, it was not committing a genocide

The Nakba of 1947 was a genocide by definition.

Subsequent military campaigns to brutalize Palestinians in the West Bank - via incremental land grabs and assassinations of political opposition - and in Gaza - via strategic assassinations along with restricting the import of durable goods and to impose a "calorie count" intended to shrink the population - were de facto genocides played out over decades.

What the current Israeli government has done is so nakedly and categorically genocidal, even to the point of Israeli politicians explicitly advocating for genocide in open debate, has removed the ability of Western supports to equivocate and hedge.

But the modern Palestinian State has existed under a policy of intentional ethnic cleansing for decades.

There is a lot of inertia here

The only inertia is Zionism. And you're not going to cause Zionists to change their minds now. Not when they have been working towards this moment for sixty years.

Either the Israeli State is dismantled or the killing will continue unabated. The notion that this war will end once rational minds prevail is the same naive optimism that kept the US in Iraq for 13 years and Afghanistan for 23.

[-] FishFace@lemmy.world 1 points 2 weeks ago

The decisions around whom to support in 2011 are not based on what was going on in 1948.

Your reply takes such a one-sided view that I'm not sure there's much point in having an extended discussion. I don't support Israel's genocide against Palestinians, but I also refuse to view the history of the conflict starting in 1948 and ignoring Arabs' role in it, and do not support the dismantling of Israel as a state, which would itself be ethnic cleansing on a greater scale than anything we have yet seen there.

Opposing the genocide of Palestinians by supporting a fresh ethic cleansing of Jews is abhorrent.

[-] Bane_Killgrind@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 2 weeks ago

You sound normal, you should avoid touching grass for a bit. Extreme viewpoints and black and white thinking are the spice of life!

[-] NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io 0 points 2 weeks ago

Being extremely against apartheid isn't being extreme.

[-] Bane_Killgrind@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 2 weeks ago

I didn't see any comments about that

[-] ZombieMantis@lemmy.world 1 points 1 week ago

Cucks to Israel/Global Capital.

[-] phutatorius@lemmy.zip 1 points 1 week ago

They don't say it because they're paid not to.

[-] dylanmorgan@slrpnk.net 1 points 2 weeks ago

Because of all those checks from AIPAC.

[-] Not_mikey@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 2 weeks ago

I don't think Bernie is getting cheque's from aipac, think he may be more motivated by aipac dumping money into a rival candidate. Although his term isn't up until 2030, and by then he'll be 89, so hopefully he won't be running for re-election anyway.

[-] Skiluros@sh.itjust.works 0 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

The follow who wrote this article is a hypocrite, he refuses to recognize what the russians are doing in Ukraine is genocide.

Not to mention he has the gall to talk about NATO and russian policy without even speaking russian or having lived in eastern europe.

Typical western "leftist".

Current Affairs is trash.

[-] IndustryStandard@lemmy.world 0 points 2 weeks ago

Which human rights organisation calls the Russian invasion of Ukraine a genocide?

[-] Skiluros@sh.itjust.works 1 points 2 weeks ago

A tankie roach came out of the sewer.

Mass summary execution of civilians, kill lists of cultural and political leaders, stealing hundreds of thousands of children, banning of language and culture (and keeping tens of thousands of civilians in torture camps) is all genocide.

This is the kind of stuff that makes me not believe that western "leftist" claims of concern about Gaza are genuine.

You are all a bunch fucking posers and scumbags.

this post was submitted on 06 Aug 2025
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