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Getting rid of techofascist services (lemmy.ml)
submitted 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) by trilobite@lemmy.ml to c/privacy@lemmy.ml
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I've been working in the last few years of getting rid of big tech services. PayPal and Amazon are left. I've been questioning the need for PayPal in a world of virtual credit cards. My main reason for using it was security of purchase but I feel this need is no longer there. BTW, equivalent EU service to PayPal that is equally well accepted? Feels like this one may be more difficult to satisfy.

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[-] infjarchninja@lemmy.ml 25 points 1 month ago

I dont use either of those.

I only use my credit card to buy online. I would rather trust my bank than some third party USA shite company.

Credit cards, unlike debit cards, offer more protections than shitty paypal.

specifically here on Airstrip One, there are no protections if you buy with paypal, whereas there are strict protections if you use your credit card.

Buyers using a credit card might get a refund via chargeback from their credit-card company. However, in the UK, where such a purchaser is entitled to specific statutory protections (that the credit card company is a second party to the purchase and is therefore equally liable in law if the other party defaults or goes into liquidation) under Section 75 Consumer Credit Act 1974, the purchaser loses this legal protection if the card payment is processed via PayPal.

Who on this earth needs amazon? amazon, the company that represents all that is wrong with the internet, with its ads, tracking, sellers fees, ai driven sales, etc etc, enshitification and abusive conduct.

I have heard from many people, friends and family, that have tried to get a refund via paypal, only to be rejected with no recourse. wankers!

whereas a quick phone call to the bank and you get a refund immediately.

[-] irotsoma@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 1 month ago

Amazon is pretty necessary in much of the US. Between big corporate stores like Walmart and Dollar General and online shopping it's really difficult for smaller stores to exist anymore. If there's any market, the big stores will come in, undercut whatever they sell, push the small stores out and then probably just go bankrupt and leave the area without anything. And the fact that much of the US is rural and our infrastructure, especially in rural areas, is old and/or underdeveloped means it could take hours to get to a store and back. And because the big stores only really carry the basics, it's really difficult to get your hands on stuff that's less common. That's where online shopping fills the gap.

I live in a medium sized major city that doesn't allow Walmart to get subsidies their business model relies on to buy up land and buildings on the cheap to help take over markets, and does at least try to keep space for small businesses, and I even have a hard time finding stuff. But doesn't help that even in most of the major cities, transportation is crap because politicians are owned by the fossil fuel companies and so public transit can't get much tax money and traffic is insane not to mention the gas prices are quite high here compared to much of the US even. And the property is super expensive primarily because so much prime real-estate is unoccupied by investors to keep the prices high. So its difficult to set up a specialty shop. I'm sure many other cities have similar issues, but I'm most familiar with this one.

As for Amazon in particular, I used them primarily because their return policy is the best and these days all of the online shops are as likely to send you a used or broken item as a new one and secondarily because at least in my city, the shipping is pretty quick. No other online stores can match it. But that said, they have started to move away from carrying quality brands and primarily sell cheap junk since that's where the profit is especially with their ability to price based on data they've mined from data brokers about you. That's why sites like Keepa and camelcamelcamel are essential to check and track actual prices they offer in addition to doing comparison shopping.

[-] infjarchninja@lemmy.ml 12 points 1 month ago

Hey irotsoma

I do feel your dilemma

I would drive for an hour to buy anything from a small store rather than buying from amazon and increasing their profits. Obviously one person has no impact upon their obscene profits.

Amazon is the curse for small business and all its employees, drivers, sellers and customers.

good reseacrh here:

https://www.yalelawjournal.org/note/amazons-antitrust-paradox

The authors conclude that getting the best price on Amazon requires that you "first spend considerable time searching through pages of results and then utilize, at a minimum, spreadsheet algebraic capabilities to determine the product’s full price…[and] somehow de-bias from the psychological effects of anchoring, and labels such as 'limited time deal' and 'Best Seller,' as well as many other subtle psychological influences."

Amazon says it's entitled to use the consumer welfare cheat-code to get out of antitrust enforcement because it has so many bargains. But to get those bargains, you have to pay such minutely detailed attention – literally spreadsheeting your options and hand-coding mathematical formulas to compare them – that you'll almost certainly fail. The price of failure is incredibly high – a 25-29% overcharge on every purchase.

The Amazon Paradox has dropped, and it drills into another way that Amazon overcharges most of us by as much as 29% on nearly every purchase, disqualifying it from invoking that consumer welfare cheat code. The new paper is "Amazon's Pricing Paradox," from law professors Rory Van Loo and Nikita Aggarwal, for The Harvard Journal of Law and Technology:

The authors concede that while Amazon does have some great bargains, it goes to enormous lengths to make it nearly impossible to get those bargains. Drawing from the literature on behavioral economics, the authors make the reasonable (and experimentally verified) assumption that shoppers generally assume that the top results in an Amazon search are the best results, and click on those.

But Amazon's search-ordering is enshittified: it shifts value from sellers and shoppers (you!) to the company. A combination of self-preferencing (upranking Amazon's own knock-offs), pay-for-placement (Amazon ads), other forms of payola (whether a merchant is paying for Prime), and "junk ads" (that don't match your search) turn Amazon's search-ordering into a rigged casino game.

From 2023:

https://pluralistic.net/2023/11/06/attention-rents/

https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/22/23885242/amazon-prime-tv-movies-streaming-ads-subscription-date

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[-] bridgeenjoyer@sh.itjust.works 11 points 1 month ago

Disagree. I lived in bum fuck nowhere most of my life and rarely ever needed Amazon. People are just lazy idiots that cabt do a simple web search for the same product. Amazon sucks ass now too, its not cheaper and the products are trash. Buy direct.

[-] irotsoma@lemmy.blahaj.zone 4 points 1 month ago

If you have sellers with electronic components and sensitive skin products that sell direct, charge less than amazon, have free exchange and return policies, and don't ship direct from Asia meaning possibly several months to receive as well as fluctuating tariffs, please share. These are just two examples I've not been able to find.

[-] gloktawasright@lemmy.world 2 points 1 month ago

Do you have more specific product examples?

[-] hector@lemmy.today 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Exactly, and the post office is further hobbled so amazon is often cheaper and quicker on shipping. 7 days for a package in the post now, from 1200 miles away inside country, from an independant seller for me last two times.

Vendor said that is for all of their clients. It was 2-3 days anywhere in country for lifetimes and since 2020 gone up and up and I seem to be the only one furious about it. 7 fucking days. Amazon sent something in 4 with free shipping on order.

[-] Jason2357@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 month ago

Amazon charged that vender 40-50% in fees for using their marketplace. You didn’t get “free shipping”.

[-] hector@lemmy.today 1 points 1 month ago

From my end I cannot always use private vendors without paying more and it taking longer.

That said I bet I have bought less from them in my lifetime than you have.

Help fix the post office then tell me to totally drop them.

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[-] rhythmisaprancer@piefed.social 11 points 1 month ago

Amazon is pretty necessary in much of the US

I couldn't disagree more. Amazon is a choice. You have to choose other options and move away from the mindset of immediacy.

[-] irotsoma@lemmy.blahaj.zone 4 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Tell me the other choice and I'll happily change. I could do without the fast shipping. That's just a bonus. But how do I get products for sensitive skin that the drug stores and Walmart don't carry, or electronics parts, or reasonably priced clothes in my styles. And local specialty shops are going to require an entire day of travel and shopping for a single product or two.

To get everything I use out of necessity or projects, I'd end up using up all of my weekends to find and travel to places that carry them and likely have to spend a lot more money on them. A few I could order direct from the manufacturer or from specialty shops online, but the manufacturer sites are likely to cost more, plus shipping costs for one off items. The specialty shops online are often just owned by another corporate blob and if I end up with a defective product I often have to pay to ship it back assuming they accept returns at all, which with cosmetic products they often don't, even if it's defective or opened. And if it's damaged in shipping or stolen, the recipient can't file a claim with the shipping company and getting many online shops to do it for you often requires hours on the phone to get through layers of escalations.

So, yes, it's a choice. But the alternatives require a significant investment of time and money. Given my job requires around 10 hrs per day and being neurodivergent, I often don't have time or energy, and then wouldn't be able to do anything fun. Not to mention, I definitely don't get paid enough. So, no not technically 100% necessary, but unfeasible not to, at least for many of us.

[-] rhythmisaprancer@piefed.social 5 points 1 month ago

I'm in a pretty similar boat to you. Not great financials, not a lot of spare time, I live in a remote location with limited purchasing options. But I made the decision a long time ago to not use Amazon. That does mean purchasing from multiple sources, seeking vendors who will sell products, and maybe pay a little more.

The thing about Amazon is that their pricing is artificial. The whole package, from item price to shipping is meant to capture you, the consumer, into their ecosystem. I am willing to spend a small amount extra to not support hegemonic practices. It isn't even that much money, and the time investment to find sources is just that (an investment). For most of my mail order stuff, I already know the vendors to use.

I don't like to castigate folks for using amazon, and I apologize if I was too confrontational, but I do want to encourage people to engage in their options before amazon is all we have.

Best wishes finding quality sources!

[-] Nefara@lemmy.world 4 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I've posted this a few times but here it is again for you:

I have managed to nearly eliminate Amazon entirely from our lives for the past two years. I usually find things by searching what I want to buy on DuckDuckGo and then adding "-amazon", "-etsy", "-walmart", "-temu" and "-pinterest" as search modifiers.

A lot of little shops are perfectly legit, but watch out for:

Things being ridiculous bargains. Small shops will almost always be more expensive due to higher overheads and less bulk

Too much variety in product (unless they're a marketplace with 3rd party vendors). A legit shop will have inventory that makes sense together in its theme. If they sell everything from bubblebath to uranium they're either probably not actually selling it or drop shipping it.

Pictures that look like they come from lots of different sources, or no consistency in images. If they don't have their own pictures of products or standards of presentation that's suspicious

Some general recs that apply if you're in the US:

For anything electronic or computer related: B&H Photo or Microcenter

For music stuff: Sweetwater, but there's a lot of great small music stores, or you can use a marketplace like Reverb

For clothes: if you have any clothes you already enjoy, go directly to their brand website. If you don't, go to local secondhand shops and touch, handle and try on some clothes to see them in person. I've discovered some brands I like by finding something in a thrift store that was well made but not my size or preferred color.

For house repair and DIY stuff: we order from a local building supply store, but there's also hardwareandtools.com, 1stoplighting, Waysource, Lightbulbs.com, Timothy's Toolbox etc.

For food items, local grocery stores often offer online shopping and delivery. If it's a specialty item or imported the import companies sometimes have their own websites.

For cosmetics, skin care and some home cleaning things, there's Hive or Grove Collaborative which try to prioritize sustainability

For tea, coffee and spices, Adagio and its sister websites

For that "everything store" experience, Costco will ship a good percentage of its offerings for free with a membership in the continental US.

For something hard to find you can't find another site for, try Ebay.

I do business with all sorts of independent retailers and have only had good experiences with them. These are sites that I've personally bought from but there are a lot of smaller sites just trying to make a place for themselves on the internet

[-] Jason2357@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 month ago

Great list and you are right. The other thing I would mention is the option to sometimes “go without”. Take a look at the popular items on Amazon and a good chunk of that list are not strictly necessary for a good life.

[-] ronigami@lemmy.world 4 points 1 month ago

Just use eBay

[-] irotsoma@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 1 month ago

I don't see that as any better. It's just shifting the profit to another giant company and even worse, there's no ubiquitous return or exchange policy if you receive items that are defective, not as advertised, don't fit, etc.

[-] ronigami@lemmy.world 7 points 1 month ago

Sellers get a larger margin on eBay. You can’t get perfect but you can get better. The return/exchange policy is a small tradeoff for not supporting one of the most evil corporations in existence. It’s also kind of a selfish thing to care about, most of Amazon’s returns are just trashed into the landfill so it’s not like it’s green or something.

[-] irotsoma@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 1 month ago

I see return policies as essential for certain items.

For example clothing sizing is extremely inconsistent and many sizing charts just are plain wrong, especially for women's clothes, and for me anyway, shoes, since I have a high arch, so if I have to pay a restocking fee and/or shipping fees every time I get something that doesn't fit just right, it is a significant cost. For example with shoes, I often have to try on 20-30 pairs at both local and online stores for every one that fits.

Just an example, but this also extends to shipping damaged products especially if a seller is not willing to deal with shipping companies for damaged products and shipping companies won't honor insurance if you weren't the one who paid for it directly. So you have to catch the delivery person before they leave the damaged package and ask them to return it to the sender and hope the sender will give you a refund without needing to reverse charges.

And then there's defective products. Often manufacturers don't exist anymore, so you end up stuck with paying for a defective product. Amazon often covers this whereas many sellers who sell overstock and outdated products without telling the buyer, do not.

These are just a few reasons that a good return policy is necessary. Now Amazon has a huge issue where they often send open box items that someone else probably returned (not usually an issue with clothing as long as it wasn't damaged, but can be an issue with warrantee or licenses for some items or , and you have to then get a new one, but at least that's free. Many others will just blame you for it if the outer packaging wasn't damaged, so they can't get shipping companies to cover it assuming they'll even go that far.

[-] ronigami@lemmy.world 1 points 1 month ago

Those are reasons a return policy is nice to have. Yes, it’s not a great idea to shop for clothes on eBay, so that can be an exception? The point is to use the giants less, it doesn’t have to be all or nothing.

[-] Gooey0210@sh.itjust.works 20 points 1 month ago

alternative in Europe: revolut is pretty popular, also it's a good cheap way to buy xmr dexes

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[-] favoredponcho@lemmy.zip 18 points 1 month ago

PayPal is the easiest to get rid of in my view. I rarely use it for anything unless some website requires it.

[-] trilobite@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 month ago

Well then you still haven't got rid of it 🙂

[-] favoredponcho@lemmy.zip 1 points 1 month ago

My goal hasn’t been to get rid of it. But, it’s a service I rarely use. I could survive without it.

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[-] SteleTrovilo@beehaw.org 15 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I've been happy not using Amazon since 2010!

For paper books, find a good local bookstore first. Then for online ordering, bookshop is good. B&N is iffy ethically - they helped crush a lot of smaller stores in the 90's, but they aren't part of the current tech giant oligarchy either. Target will usually have a section of best-sellers. If you have to buy from a big store, maybe offset it ethically by donating to a library.

For ebooks, Bookshop is good! They point out which of their ebooks have DRM and which don't. For some cases, you can also buy books directly from the publisher - these basically never have DRM in my experience. I mainly experience this with technical books and tabletop RPG books.

[-] 9point6@lemmy.world 14 points 1 month ago

I think you're possibly looking for Wero and its predecessors (iDEAL, Giropay, etc)

It's relatively new in its current form, but I think it's being adopted across the EU at an alright rate

[-] Novocirab@feddit.org 4 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

+1 for Wero! We have to get it adopted. If anyone's bank doesn't support it yet, and you need to switch banks for other reasons, best include Wero support among your criteria. ING is among those banks whose support for it is the best.

[-] pedroapero@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Right, successor of Paylib too. From a user standpoint, it's the same than Paypal except that it uses phone numbers for identifiers. It's supported by a lot of banks already (no need for additional app / account).

[-] Ulrich@feddit.org 7 points 1 month ago

My main reason for using it was security of purchase

You can get the same with credit cards.

[-] autonomoususer@lemmy.world 6 points 1 month ago

PayPal has always been a scam when credit cards exist.

[-] HakFoo@lemmy.sdf.org 16 points 1 month ago

IMO, the real use case for PayPal was really on the seller side.

When it was 2002 and you weren't a major business but just wanted to sell three old CDs on eBay or offer dog haberdashery online, it was by far the simplest way to accept a credit-card funded transaction.

We're still not a lot better there in 2025. Even with more modern platforms, you can't really get from zero to accepting cards directly in 15 minutes.

[-] autonomoususer@lemmy.world 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Yes, it a scam for us the buyers. They want PayPal, not us.

[-] irmadlad@lemmy.world 6 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I find the discussion interesting. It's kind of like telling me you've eradicated Google from your life. I guarantee you that at some point in your daily traversal of the internet, you'll encounter some Google service or skunk works project. It's inevitable. At some point or another you're going to have to hold your nose and get a little dirty.....or go build a cabin on some hilltop and disconnect from all of society. I live in a tiny house on a 22 acre farm. As self sufficient as I endeavor to be, yes, I still have to use Amazon, or WalMart on occasion.

[-] hector@lemmy.today 3 points 1 month ago

I am in a little place on land in nowhere and need to use amazon for some stuff. Big box stores are 40 plus miles away and they may be overpriced if they even have it.

I try to order direct but for some stuff I need amazon still. As to google I hope to change phone to open source but idk how yet.

[-] irmadlad@lemmy.world 2 points 1 month ago

We do the necessary with what we have. In the many decades on this planet, I've seen few instances where the 'all or nothing' mindset worked. It's unfortunate, but that's reality 101. So, you have to choose your battles.

[-] trilobite@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 month ago

Well, this is the point. Eradication may ne unachievable but that doesn't mean we have to stop breaking the chains. Its like saying Israel wants to wipe out Palestine and the rest of the world just watches (which is exactly what is happening unfortunately). We are surrounding our lives to those with power and money. As humanity, we need to find some lost dignity. We need to defend human dignity, and that comprises the right to privacy.

[-] spykee@lemmings.world 4 points 1 month ago

Everybody here arguing over how useful/useless Amazon is for them.
Poor New Zealanders out there in the corner, still living their lives without ever seeing a single Amazon box thrown at their porch.
But none of you thought about them Kiwis, did you? No. You only think about yourself. Good job, keep it up.

[-] birdwing@lemmy.blahaj.zone 4 points 1 month ago

For Amazon the best replacement would be Bol.com if you're in the Benelux. If not, shop locally (except for malls).

[-] haqi@sh.itjust.works 3 points 1 month ago

There is also Coolblue

[-] Core_of_Arden@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 month ago

Keep up the good work. I don't know what you need. Mostly I get by cash, Dankort (Danish "credit" card) or Visa in some rare situations. Don't buy anything from Amazon anymore.

[-] Hansae@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 1 month ago

God I love dankort, amazing system. Really wished more people in DK made use of it. Britain selling their own card system out to MasterCard was a actual crime against the population. Apparently cash usage in DK has crashed since I was last there 5 years ago though : (.

[-] Core_of_Arden@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 month ago

Yeah - companies are, sadly, breaking the law here, and some refuses to take cash... But we are quite a few who stubbornly cling to cash.

[-] Hansae@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 1 month ago

Really annoying when companies do that, unfortunately here they're allowed to as legal tender is basically meaningless.

Also just reminded me I have a few 1000kr notes I really need to pay into a bank next time im over there.

[-] Core_of_Arden@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 month ago

Well, then I have bad news for you - because they just fased out the 1000 kroner bills... :-( The highest bill now is 500,- kroner. Last day to use the or exchange the 1000,- kroner bill was may 31... :-(

[-] Hansae@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Yeah Ik, its why I need to go and pay in the 5 of them I have lying around lol, the exchanges wont take them here. If nothing else I can probs sell them to collectors.

[-] Core_of_Arden@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 month ago

I hope you can!

[-] cram@piefed.world 2 points 1 month ago

I only use PayPal for reoccurring donations to my local library, but I see your dilemma. Using credit cards is also great for exploiting the various rewards systems as well, as long as you pay your balance every month.

[-] DieserTypMatthias@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

EU service to PayPal

Maybe SEPA Instant, but that's a protocol for bank transfer. Or just use a normal payment gateway provided by the website. Or use Apple/Google Pay on sites where it's supported.

[-] trilobite@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 month ago

Sureley google pay/Apple pay IS eventi worse

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this post was submitted on 06 Sep 2025
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