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I posted something. Then I noticed that it was formatted wrong! I went back to fix it in edit mode. It seemed fine in edit mode. I saved it again. It was still wrong.

The thing that was wrong: In source / edit, my sentences are separated with the charcters "period space space". This is a typing standard that improves legibility, which is extra important in effortposts. However, in the displayed mode, one of every double space had been eaten! Every post, every comment, mangled! Sentences are separated with "period space" instead of "period space space" and the text is slightly less legible for it. I noticed it for questionmark space space and exclamationmark space space as well. There's some secret life form eating spaces.

Testing behavior: Period Space: Sentence 1. Sentence 2.

Period Space Space: Sentence 1. Sentence 2.

Period Space Space Space: Sentence 1. Sentence 2.

Yep, saw it in preview, all the spaces are getting eaten. This is a crime against good style. I won't go so far as to say this is a hate crime against anyone who struggles with reading and visual processing... yet. But the site is editing my comment in order to enforce an objectively worse typographical standard (period singlespace). Literally 19 84. yeonmi-park on Communist Bear Site they automatically censor out your punctuation marks in order to make your writing conform to a worse standard, calling double spaces a bourgeois decadent waste of space.

Please help

(Also, should this go in /c/technology or in /c/hexbear? It's about both)

(Should I be submitting this as a bug report on github instead?)

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[-] ClassIsOver@hexbear.net 22 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I'm a graphic designer, and the first thing I do when I flow copy is find and replace double spaces with single spaces. Other people have already posted why (automatic kerning, monospaced fonts), but it's a vestige of the typewriter era, not best practices for the internet.

There are a lot of horrible type standards on the internet, like not auto-ragging, QWERTY vs. DVORAK keyboards, and horribly inconsistent treatment of ligatures, but relics of the typewriter days are not one of them.

[-] someone@hexbear.net 11 points 1 month ago

I really don't like bad keming.

[-] KuroXppi@hexbear.net 8 points 1 month ago
[-] Le_Wokisme@hexbear.net 8 points 1 month ago

bad keming is just the vvorst

[-] Owl@hexbear.net 22 points 1 month ago

This is built into html itself.

[-] WrongOnTheInternet@hexbear.net 22 points 1 month ago

Double spacing is the worst, sorry OP

[-] Philosoraptor@hexbear.net 18 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

This is how I learned to type also, and a person that I worked with on an accessibility documentation project last year finally convinced me to break the habit. As others have said, this convention emerged when all fonts were monospace, and it did indeed improve clarity there. It no longer does on modern systems, and in fact makes it harder for some people to read. It is no longer the standard and is actually actively discouraged for accessibility reasons. It took me about a week to actually break the habit, but it wasn't too bad. I'd advise you to do the same.

[-] reader@hexbear.net 4 points 1 month ago

Was there an accessibility angle to their argument beyond "makes it harder for some users to read"? (not that that's an invalid argument but I don't think it's self evident)

I'm not a double space user and don't necessarily think this behavior needs to change, but if you, like OP, subjectively find something easier to read and are accustomed to it, I don't think "no, its a historical relic and doesn't make a difference in readability" will be very convincing in that situation...

Ultimately, hexbear is not using a wysiwyg editor, but it is frustrating when there's no good way to make your post look how you want it to, whether that's for an effort post, a dumb meme with emotes or ascii art type drawings or whatever, and space collapsing is much more disruptive than newline collapsing in that way

[-] Philosoraptor@hexbear.net 6 points 1 month ago

The person I was working with was an accessibility librarian in her regular job (this project was for an org) and I mostly just took her word for it since I didn't care too much one way or another; it was just a habit I'd had from learning to type in the early 1990s. She did mention that it can confuse some screen reading software, which is wild but again I believe she probably knows what she's talking about--she is a pretty well known advocate in that space, and was up on all the best practices research.

[-] reader@hexbear.net 6 points 1 month ago

fair enough. I wonder if/how modern screen readers still have such problems

[-] Muinteoir_Saoirse@hexbear.net 6 points 1 month ago

I'm an educator with primarily adult learners who have learning disabilities. So I can share a few insights into ways that digital fonts are handled for accessibility. These are guidelines, though, and often the best solution is to create text that can be tailored by the end-user for whatever best suits them using their individual accessibility software.

Screen readers (as far as the ones I've seen in action) aren't the reason behind dropping the extra space. They work just fine, they ignore the extra space and read the sentences out no problem. It's actually because of space rivers. Space rivers are an optical phenomenon in which space between words is seen as a river wending through text: in other words, the spaces can create a seeming pattern that are distracting for readers (especially those with dyslexia). That extra space makes spacing inconsistent, which draws the eye to trace the rivers (though dark mode has some success in cutting down on perceived rivers).

More important is consistency. Consistent spacing. Consistent kerning. Legible fonts. Extra space between lines is a huge help as well, All bold text can also be a big help for dyslexic readers, though less helpful in dark mode.

[-] yyprum@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 4 weeks ago

Space rivers... I finally have a way to call it. And it's not for everyone? Huh, I somehow thought it was a common thing.

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[-] Philosoraptor@hexbear.net 2 points 1 month ago

My total shot in the dark guess would be that it messes up the rhythm of reading on some implementations, with extra long pauses between sentences. Software can be very weird though so who knows.

[-] Soot@hexbear.net 18 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I'm sorry, friend, but this isn't a bug. This is a deliberate feature, common across the web, and it's to improve readability for most people.

[-] KuroXppi@hexbear.net 17 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

The head of legal at my last job used double space after fullstop, which she said was for legibility.   I don't think it really improved legibility.   Rather, it made me mentally pause longer and uncomfortably between sentences, and it looked noticeably unnatural.

[-] Edie@hexbear.net 16 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

This is a feature of web browsers, they will "collapse whitespace"

[-] RedWizard@hexbear.net 7 points 1 month ago

I think this is the technically correct answer and the reason you can use a Non Line Breaking Space code   to     add     spaces     to      HTML       documents.

[-] Edie@hexbear.net 4 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

It is, cuz if I go into developer tools and check the paragraphs the two spaces are still there.

[-] PorkrollPosadist@hexbear.net 14 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Everyone in this thread is wrong. Double space is good practice. Modern typesetting makes it unnecessary? Who cares? The layout engine can just ignore the space and function semantically. If it doesn't, its broken and should be fixed. On the other hand, text editors designed for adults with functions that operate on sentences as a unit use the double space to distinguish between an abbreviation and the end of a sentence. Emacs users are a powerful enemy.

[-] Maturin@hexbear.net 5 points 1 month ago

Team double space represent!

[-] communism@lemmy.ml 13 points 1 month ago

This isn't a bug. It's a feature of the way browsers render HTML (and possibly whatever Lemmy is using to render Markdown is automatically stripping extra spaces anyway). It means that you can format Markdown/HTML however you like (e.g. inserting line breaks in the middle of paragraphs that will be rendered as spaces, or indenting HTML to be more readable to you) whilst it's still user-friendly when rendered.

You could use   if you want things to appear double-spaced.

[-] Aradino@hexbear.net 12 points 1 month ago

A full stop and a space is perfectly legible and is used most places. I think double spacing like that is for typewriters

you're not typing on a typewriter, the double space after a period is purely unnecessary and distracting for the reader

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[-] Palacegalleryratio@hexbear.net 11 points 1 month ago

If this is a bit; hilarious. If its a sincere post, then I'm sorry OP you're a relic of a time that no longer exists. Double spacing is excellent for improving readability on monospaced fonts e.g. from typewriters or in terminal windows.

This is a sentence separated by 2 spaces. As can be seen it clearly de-marks the gap much wider than the gap between characters that occurs in monospace fonts. This helps readability.

This is a sentence separated by 1 space. It is a little harder to see the period space in a monospace due to many characters having a gap between them.

But this isn't a relevant property in modern fonts that have different layout dependent not just on the character width (5 l's take less space than 5 m's; lllll mmmmm) but also the gaps are consistent between characters depending on the preceding and following characters, by allowing overlap in spaces by clever kerning e.g. between the Y and the o of You, note how the o sits under the arms of the Y. This means the gaps between characters on modern fonts are consistent, and the single space is clear to see for legibility. Trying to force widen the gap on a period using double spaces with modern kerning is not better for legibility and can in some instances make it worse for readability and cause other technical issues.

[-] Le_Wokisme@hexbear.net 9 points 1 month ago

~~ok grandma let's get you back to the home~~

there's probably a browser extension you can use that replaces ". " with ". " + " "

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[-] Alice196498@hexbear.net 8 points 1 month ago

This is a feature of Markdown, which is what Hexbear uſes to format poſts. What Operating Syſtem are you uſing ? I uſe em quads between ſentences, as is the common practice in older printing, but an en quad and a ſpace alſo works (ſometimes even better than an em quad due to allowing for more expanſion in juſtified lines), as was done on the Linotype machines. For Windows, it’s eaſy to make an A‌utoHotKey ſcript to replace the double ſpace with ſomething more workable, and on Linux, there are various options available.

[-] Palacegalleryratio@hexbear.net 3 points 1 month ago

While talking about readability, what’s with the ſ character use?

[-] Alice196498@hexbear.net 4 points 1 month ago

It’s the long s, a variant of the letter s, which has been uſed in Engliſh (and moſt other languages that uſe the Latin alphabet) for moſt of its written hiſtory. It ſtarted to fall out of faſhion in the 19th century, but I ſtill uſe it in accordance with the typeſetting rules followed in high-quality printing of the late 18th century. Regarding readability, that’s one reaſon I uſe it, other than finding hiſtorical printing beautiful and intereſting, as well as other reaſons :‌ The more varied ſhape the long s adds to words and lines of text can aid reading. I’ve had people ſay it helps with dyſlexia too, but alſo have had people ſay it’s not helpful and confuſing. I’ve been conſidering making a poſt here to get the opinions of people here from a materialiſt perſpective, as the dialecticks involved are curious to think about, and I’ve been internally debating whether it actually does what I believe and intend with its uſe.

[-] blunder@hexbear.net 3 points 1 month ago

I would read that

[-] tocopherol@hexbear.net 2 points 1 month ago

Maybe if someone gets used to that character it can be more readible, but it makes it much less smooth to read for me now. I would guess it fell out of usage because to me it seems unnecessary. I don't mind the triple spaces really though. But I think being further away from the general standard can make the format distract from the content of the text because it's not as typical and makes it take more time to comprehend, for me at least.

[-] Alice196498@hexbear.net 3 points 1 month ago

That’s a good point : it can be more difficult to read if not acclimated to it, which ſomewhat negates the potential benefit. Seeming unneceſſary or being more complex is one reaſon it fell out of faſhion, but the primary driver, at leaſt in Engliſh, was ſocio-political. People at the time wanted to draw a diſtinction between the old way and new way as things were being more and more induſtrialized and ſtandardized—new typefaces alſo were being developed and adopted at the time, further reflecting theſe feelings and deſire for change. The arguments in favour of the long s and its potential benefits are far leſs objectively diſcernable than thoſe for wider ſpacing. It’s alſo true that being farther from what is familiar can take longer to comprehend or read, which could be poſitive if ſomeone takes more time to think about what they’re doing or what one is trying to convey, but negative if it detracts and diſtracts from the content, as you pointed out.

[-] tocopherol@hexbear.net 2 points 1 month ago

I do appreciate your effort though, language is always evolving, things go out of favor and come back so it's cool to try different styles to see if they can catch on or can be useful. A lot of things that were modernized from the classical era to the industrial/post industrial era might not actually be ideal for things like accessibility or freedom of expression etc, compared to things that were developed over centuries. I find the style a bit odd because I don't see it much, but having more characters in English writing could definitely be useful and helpful for learning pronunciation possibly.

[-] Alice196498@hexbear.net 2 points 4 weeks ago

Language is always evolving, and that’s great. It’s intereſting when things go in and out of favour, much like faſhion. the really great thing is where it can help with acceſſibility and freedom of expreſſion or other elements, where modern tools and methods can really help it ſhine and be eaſier to write how one wants, or diſplay text how one wants or needs, than it ever was hiſtorically.
 Wider ſpacing is ſomething that is truly uſeful and of great benefit to both humans and machines ; the long s, I’d ſay that the main benefit is one of expreſſion and æſthetick overall, and juſt an orthographical convention and viſually different way of doing things. It can be beneficial, but I worry it can alſo be harmful, and looking at ſome of the language reforms in places like the USSR and China, or the Literacy Campaign in Cuba, we can ſee that having ſomething more ſimple might be more beneficial to literacy, but there is ſtill room for different preſentation or ways of writing, eſpecially when people can eaſily cuſtomize their viewing experience. The main iſſue with that, however, is the general technological barrier and fact that there’s no default way to do that without going out of one’s way to get the right addons or typefaces, which ought to be available by default. That would be a great acceſſibility feature.

[-] Horse@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 1 month ago

how do you feel about the þ? i have seen a few people on lemmy bringing þat one back

[-] Alice196498@hexbear.net 2 points 4 weeks ago

Þ is a neat letter, and I think it’s actually quite uſeful. I perſonally don’t uſe it in my orthography, but I’d ſupport its general uſe. It would, in my opinion, be an improvement, and ſave on ſome typing, as th is the moſt common digraph in Engliſh, and would give the language a nice flow in reading.

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[-] ClassIsOver@hexbear.net 3 points 1 month ago

I'm ſure it'ſ meant to emphaſize the point, and it'ſ very eaſy to read through, but it doeſ look very ſilly.

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[-] starkillerfish@hexbear.net 8 points 1 month ago

It’s how markdown works

[-] cristian64@reddthat.com 7 points 1 month ago

A period (already a small character) + a space is sufficient to separate sentences.

Also, if there are more than one space together, it's hard to count them. That is, the more spaces you keep together, the harder it gets to know whether you've put the correct number of spaces.

[-] InevitableSwing@hexbear.net 6 points 1 month ago

I don't understand your examples at all.

You could edit it to use code style. With the "backwards tick" character or whatever it's called.

Or by adding four spaces at the beginning of a line
[-] stupid_asshole69@hexbear.net 6 points 1 month ago

This could be fixed site wide by replacing double spaces in the content sent to a browser with space then something like emsp14, which would force the browsers html rendering engine to not automatically compress the white space.

There’s a real subtlety to the creation and refinement of the attention economy.

[-] Esoteir@hexbear.net 6 points 1 month ago

if you're on windows you can cheese it by using the alt-0160 shortcut, it generates a no-break space that's read as a character by html instead of a space, I think in linux it should be ctrl+shift+U->00A0?

anyway once you make one of them or copy it from this comment you can ctrl-c and ctrl-v it for ease of use for the rest of time fidel-salute

For instance: One Space. Two Space.  Three Space.       bazinga                        fuck     shit           lmaooo                                poop

[-] dead@hexbear.net 5 points 1 month ago
[-] BountifulEggnog@hexbear.net 5 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Genuine question, are you a native speaker?

[-] stupid_asshole69@hexbear.net 1 points 1 month ago

By allah you people are dogs!

Double spacing after the period improves readability on all fonts not just monospaced ones! When reading a paragraph of sentences it’s much easier to pick out the markers between them as you scan ahead when those have both the punctuation mark and a different spacing!

There could be some argument made for spacing after sentences the same as between words if our forum were using accursed full justification but we’re left justified.

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this post was submitted on 31 Oct 2025
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