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submitted 18 hours ago* (last edited 13 hours ago) by jackmaoist@hexbear.net to c/technology@hexbear.net

As much as I like using Proton Mail and VPN, their current offerings have grown exponentially in size.

I would highly recommend anyone here to not put all their eggs in one basket. Proton can and has in the past disabled user accounts for no reason. This means that you will lose access to everything you use with them.

Only use Mail or VPN and use other services for other needs.

  1. Mail -> Tutanota
  2. Calendar -> Tutanota
  3. Drive -> Just make a NAS. I don't trust any provider with file storage.
  4. VPN -> Mullvad
  5. Pass -> Bitwarden or Keepass
  6. Wallet -> Don't buy crypto
  7. Docs -> ~~OpenOffice~~ LibreOffice
  8. Sheets -> ~~OpenOffice~~ LibreOffice
  9. Authenticator -> Aegis or Ente Auth
  10. Meet -> This is fine.
  11. AI -> Run something locally
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[-] JustSo@hexbear.net 12 points 10 hours ago* (last edited 10 hours ago)

Every time I try to pull together everything for a Proton effortpost I run out of energy. Some of the following are disputed heavily in internet comment sections. I can't be fucked arguing about it, but if anyone's curious here's some stuff from my recent searches. I still use proton for mail because I haven't migrated my complicated setup to something else yet, but I don't trust their services. Email I can live with as a convenience compromise for now, "encrypted email" is kind of misleading anyway and not what I rely on it for.

Anyway,

https://proton.me/legal/transparency

https://intelod.net/reports/proton-mail/

https://stavroulapabst.substack.com/p/proton-mail-imperialist-stooge

https://encryp.ch/blog/disturbing-facts-about-protonmail/

https://steigerlegal.ch/2021/09/15/cia-protonmail-foia/

Since that last one (a Swiss legal blog) is in German and I have already machine translated it I will put the contents here in a spoiler.

CIA on ProtonMail: “We can’t confirm or deny”

Did the CIA fund ProtonMail directly or indirectly? Are there any relationships between the CIA and ProtonMail? What documents does the CIA have about ProtonMail, the “secure email service from Switzerland”?

These and other questions were asked by a ProtonMail user of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), the American foreign intelligence service.

The Freedom of Information Act (FOIA), an American law on freedom of information, gives everyone the right to request access to documents from state authorities.

CIA on ProtonMail: “We can’t confirm or deny”

To the total of 12 detailed questions, the Information and Privacy Coordinator of the CIA answered the aforementioned user in a very close manner, namely essentially with “We cannot confirm or deny”:

The CIA has not found any documents that would publicly confirm a relationship between the CIA and ProtonMail:

«[...] we did not locate any responsive records that would reveal a publicly acknowledged CIA affiliation with the subject.»

With regard to all other documents, the CIA could not confirm or deny the existence or lack of documents relating to ProtonMail. The information as to whether such documents existed or not was confidential and could therefore not be disclosed:

«With respect to any other records [...], the CIA can be nor confirm nor deny the existence or nonexistence of records [...]. The fact of the existence or nonexistence of such records is itself currently and ordination and is intelligence sources and methods protected information from [...].»

The likelihood that the CIA does not have a single document related to ProtonMail is very small. After all, ProtonMail has over 50 million users, including many from the USA.

Background: Affair around the Crypto AG and the manipulated encryption devices

The non-information will encourage all those who suspect that ProtonMail is operated by intelligence agencies or at least has relations with intelligence agencies.

“For decades, more than a hundred states have been spied on by the CIA and BND. Hundreds of thousands of secret messages between government agencies, authorities, embassies or military bodies have been systematically intercepted.
How was that possible? The more than 100 governments bought encryption devices from the former Zug-based company Crypto AG. These ciphers were so manipulated that the two intelligence agencies could intercept everything. Newly leaked intelligence dossiers prove that Crypto AG was bought by the CIA and the BND in 1970 – veiled by a foundation in Liechtenstein. [...]»

The same applies to Infoguard AG, a sister company of Crypto AG:

“The fact that Infoguard was used for intelligence actions in the first phase of its existence – between 1988 and 1992 – is almost certain.”

It is no secret that the CIA is participating in “start-ups developing intelligence-related products” through the venture capital company In-Q-Tel:

A well-known example is the controversial company Palantir Technologies, which is also active in Switzerland. “The only investor and client was the CIA for years.”

Another well-known example was the American Keyhole Inc., which developed the software that is now known as Google Earth offered. The company “Keyhole” was a tribute to the CIA’s KH reconnaissance satellites, which were used for espionage between 1959 and 1972.

However, investment by the CIA is only exceptionally made so publicly.

“Meanwhile, In-Q-Tel has invested in hundreds of companies and manages assets worth several hundred million dollars. The official investment arm of the CIA is an exception. Normally, links between intelligence agencies and business enterprises are more discreet. [...]»

Intelligence: Investment for more surveillance?

Internet companies that promise their users privacy, security and confidentiality are not only a popular destination for investment in the United States:

This is how the British-Israeli IT security company Kape Technologies buys together VPn providers, most recently ExpressVPN. GhostVPN and Zenmate have also been in possession of Cape Technologies for several years.

“The company’s desire to buy is not all a sense. Observers such as the IT expert Felix von Leitner aka Fefe notice that Israel should thus become a stronghold for VPN services. Thus, increasing parts of the network communication encrypted on long distances could be recorded and intercepted comparatively simply by intelligence agencies of the country such as the Mossad, since there is no end-to-end encryption in VPN and data is available in plain text with the technology service providers.”

With ProtonVPN, Proton Technologies, the provider of ProtonMail, is also active in the VPN business.

- Attorney Martin Steiger

Martin Steiger is a lawyer and entrepreneur for law in the digital space. He deals in particular with data protection law, intellectual property law, IT law and media law. In addition to his legal practice, he is involved in the digital society and flies in his spare time as a private pilot. Martin Steiger is also co-founder of Legal Tech-Unternehmen Datenschutzpartner AG (Switzerland) and VGS Datenschutzpartner GmbH (Germany).

[-] JustSo@hexbear.net 9 points 10 hours ago* (last edited 10 hours ago)

Note that the "transparency report" is what passes for a warrant canary at Proton. Notice that they don't report activity during the year, just an annual summary of all the legal orders they've received, how many they contested and how many they complied with.

Mind you that's purely them complying with legal orders from Swiss court (often/usually acting on behalf of a foreign interest.) As the legal blog post outlines, there is a long history of american and israeli intelligence investing in encryption services and mathematically backdooring the products, which if that is the case with Proton, is a separate issue to the incidences tallied up on the so-callled transparency report.

When I first started using Proton they were not complying with over ten thousand court orders in a year. I think if I were looking for hosted services today I would be very skeptical about Proton and suspect that they trade on historic good will that they perhaps never deserved and certainly don't deserve now.

If you're going to use their services, treat them as any other small time corporate owned online service and do not entrust your freedom and safety to them if you have any reason to fear state level threats. ETA: Or even well funded corporate ones.

[-] LeninWeave@hexbear.net 20 points 13 hours ago

Don't use OpenOffice, it's functionally abandoned and serves only to spoil the momentum of the successor LibreOffice project.

Use LibreOffice, or OnlyOffice if you really need an MS Office clone.

[-] booty@hexbear.net 5 points 10 hours ago

I also find that Proton's Suit of Products has become too big

  1. Ace of Proton -> Ace of Spades
  2. Queen of Proton -> Queen of Hearts
  3. Jack of Proton -> Jack of Diamonds
  4. King of Proton -> gui
  5. 2 of Proton -> wtf are you even doing
[-] bigpharmasutra@hexbear.net 9 points 13 hours ago

Mail and VPN are not only a good package, they're also a good financial deal if you get in during Black Friday. You can snag the whole suite of shit you aren't even going to use for the price of a Mullvad and Tuta subscription. THAT is really where Proton shines.

"Authenticator -> Aegis or Ente Auth"

Should be Bitwarden with the $10 yearly to be honest. Much better to streamline the whole operation.

I have Proton Unlimited and I've never even heard of 'Meet'. Where the fuck did that even come from?

I've been meaning to try Wallet as I need to get into crypto to buy chinese peptides and research chemicals. Why doesn't anyone talk about that around here?

[-] jackmaoist@hexbear.net 7 points 13 hours ago

It's good yeah but you have a major compromise here if you're really really privacy secure. Never use VPN + Communication from the same company at once.

Mullvad is also the most private VPN since you can actually just send them cash anonymously and get a sub.

[-] bigpharmasutra@hexbear.net 4 points 11 hours ago

Trust me, privacy is my hobby horse. Unless you're actively committing crimes, or trying to evade the government, then that's not much of an OPSEC concern. Proton doesn't hand over logs willingly.

The cost savings for me really sealed the deal. I get mail, vpn, SimpleLogin, and all the other junk for around 60 a year on the black friday deal. I don't know what I'm going to do when my renewal comes up next December though. You can't access the new user price on renewals, sadly.

[-] jackmaoist@hexbear.net 1 points 2 hours ago

Dissent is borderline illegal in many countries nowadays.

[-] JustSo@hexbear.net 12 points 10 hours ago

Unless you're actively committing crimes, or trying to evade the government

Privacy is more than a hobby horse for an increasingly large segment of the worlds population.

I doubt Proton would even protect a ROM pirate from Nintendo.

[-] LeninWeave@hexbear.net 8 points 9 hours ago

In general, Swiss authorities do not assist foreign authorities from countries with a history of human rights abuses.

lmao

[-] BabyTurtles@hexbear.net 29 points 17 hours ago

Also the Proton CEO Andy Yen is a crypto-Nazi who praised Trump's "America first agenda" and wants Europe to go "Europe first", and also blames all Europe's issues on "the globalists"

[-] LeninWeave@hexbear.net 8 points 11 hours ago

Andy Yen

and also blames all Europe's issues on "the globalists"

lmao bruh, you are CHINESE.

[-] BabyTurtles@hexbear.net 4 points 8 hours ago

I had to double-check but he was born in Taiwan and studied at Caltech and Harvard, which connects the dots as to how he as to how he got so deep in the Western kook-aid.

[-] jackmaoist@hexbear.net 11 points 15 hours ago

No wonder he's going bazinga brain with Proton.

[-] TankieTanuki@hexbear.net 8 points 13 hours ago* (last edited 13 hours ago)

"Proton meet" is how nuclear fission/fusion happen :beanis:

[-] Edie@hexbear.net 33 points 18 hours ago

OpenOffice

Its called LibreOffice.


This user is suspected of being a cat. Please report any suspicious behavior.

[-] SouffleHuman@lemmy.ml 10 points 18 hours ago

Or maybe they meant Onlyoffice?

[-] 9to5@hexbear.net 6 points 17 hours ago

Is that connected to onlyfans ?

[-] kadu@scribe.disroot.org 3 points 14 hours ago

Extremely hot nudes but they're rendered pixel by pixel as spreadsheet cells you need to zoom out to see!

[-] tactical_trans_karen@hexbear.net 23 points 17 hours ago
[-] jackmaoist@hexbear.net 12 points 15 hours ago

Run deepseek/qwen locally or something. It's still useful. Never use AI as a service though.

[-] kadu@scribe.disroot.org 9 points 14 hours ago* (last edited 14 hours ago)

By running AI locally you're avoiding the "easy" issues with AI: privacy and control. Sure.

But you're still falling victim to brain atrophy by a language prediction model pretending to be able to reason, you're frying your ability to decipher and organize complex information by yourself in exchange for an average-blob of collective internet answers.

This second part is significantly more damaging than the first, and we are just at the start. Don't engage with the slop, wether it runs on your computer locally, your phone, or wherever else.

[-] jackmaoist@hexbear.net 9 points 13 hours ago

I don't outsource my brain to AI. It's mostly just to get fringe information regarding development. It's more like using a search engine.

[-] kadu@scribe.disroot.org 8 points 13 hours ago

It's more like using a search engine

Then why not use a search engine? You'll find the answer is "it requires more work" which just means it requires engaging in filtering information.

You're already outsourcing your brain to AI.

[-] Mardoniush@hexbear.net 8 points 10 hours ago

It's not "more work" it's "more time". The alternative to a lot of cases isn't "well I'll carefully handcraft a solution like an 18th century artisan" it's "no time to do this, goes on the backlog I'll never get around to"

[-] kadu@scribe.disroot.org 9 points 10 hours ago

So you're frequently dealing with problems that require searching for information and they're important enough that you need to do it quickly, yet they're not important enough to warrant attention and you'd rather risk having a slop machine that gets 4 out of 6 answers wrong in hard to notice ways.

Sounds... Important, I guess.

[-] gayspacemarxist@hexbear.net 8 points 13 hours ago

it really depends on exactly how you engage with AI. using it doesn't magically make you stupid, it just makes it easier to be lazy in certain ways. I think LLMs are interesting for search (even though we absolutely still need normal boolean search because language models are lossy). They seem like they're good at synthesizing information, but that seems like an illusion to me. You gotta establish boundaries because the hype (and our cultural notions about AI) don't give us healthy or realistic ones by default.

[-] Inui@hexbear.net 11 points 13 hours ago* (last edited 13 hours ago)

As an example, I'm not a programmer. Not interested in being one. I set up Radarr on my home server this week and it wants all video files in their own named folders to import. I had like 400 movies I needed to manually make a folder for so Radarr can detect it. I asked AI to make me a script that just read the name of the movie, made a folder with the same name, then moved the movie into it. Took all of 3 minutes for a task I will never do again.

[-] umbrella@lemmy.ml 12 points 16 hours ago

eh, they are fascist sympathizers anyway.

[-] RondoRevolution@hexbear.net 6 points 15 hours ago

Agreed, it's a good idea to use different service providers whenever possible. I've been using both Proton Mail and Tuta, and I really want to like Tuta, but it's a much worse experience for me compared to Proton. It's much slower, has no way to check an address as not spam, doesn't group similar emails together and just has a worse UI in general. I'll continue to use it of course, but I wish it was better.

For Drive, I don't really use it much, but if trust is an issue you can always use something like Cryptomator to encrypt the files before uploading. Also if you use a Drive service mainly for quickly sharing files with someone like I used to, an alternative is to use something like Sendworm, discovered this app a couple of weeks ago, it's pretty cool.

[-] kadu@scribe.disroot.org 4 points 14 hours ago

Hot take around here for some reason, but I see proton just the same as Google. If you care about privacy, control and user-centric design, do NOT rely on software running on a server somewhere. Your best interests are never aligned with theirs.

[-] BigWeed@hexbear.net 6 points 14 hours ago

Is a personal email server even possible in 2025? It seems like email is fully commodified at this point.

[-] bigpharmasutra@hexbear.net 9 points 13 hours ago

Its too much of a pain in the ass to be honest.

[-] RedWizard@hexbear.net 4 points 11 hours ago

Email is effectively a trash heap at this point. Pick your poison. If you're doing sensitive communication over email you shouldn't. I don't think I've sent a single real person an email outside of work in 15 years.

I find services like Mozilla Relay useful, and you could self host something like Simple Login for a similar service.

[-] comrade_pibb@hexbear.net 6 points 14 hours ago

self hosted email is simply not an option

[-] jackmaoist@hexbear.net 4 points 13 hours ago

Self hosted email sucks ass. Just use the free tier from tuta/proton instead.

[-] bobs_guns@lemmygrad.ml 8 points 17 hours ago

I've heard good things about Jitsi for videoconferencing but idk how well it actually works.

[-] homhom9000@hexbear.net 7 points 16 hours ago

I've used it a bit and had no complaints or issues

[-] jackmaoist@hexbear.net 4 points 15 hours ago

I stopped using Jitsi when they mandated signing in. Looks like they revoked that shit though.

[-] Axolotl_cpp@feddit.it 7 points 17 hours ago* (last edited 17 hours ago)
  1. Wallet -> Don't buy crypto

Cryptos are actually usefull especially to be anonymous

[-] tactical_trans_karen@hexbear.net 15 points 17 hours ago

Crypto is tracable, and the record can't be changed. It's also contributing to boiling the ocean.

[-] Meltyheartlove@hexbear.net 8 points 17 hours ago
[-] jackmaoist@hexbear.net 4 points 15 hours ago

It's a bitcoin wallet

[-] bobs_guns@lemmygrad.ml 4 points 17 hours ago

Monero does provide anonymity properties but only a little bit. It's the best of a bad bunch

[-] From_the_river_to_the_sea@hexbear.net 6 points 16 hours ago* (last edited 16 hours ago)

Well , i would say if XMR is a lot more than just a little bit. Just how you use it like everything else , theres a great video on tankietube from people who try and track cryptotransfers. Very educational.

If it is very sensitive and you do an extra transfer i would say its foolproof.

Theres a reasons governments around the world are cracking down on it. Or at least try so and make it a bit more difficult to buy it with fiat. Also just regular BTC can be tumbled.

[-] bobs_guns@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 11 hours ago

I used to work on something with a bigger anonymity set so maybe I was too harsh on it.

[-] From_the_river_to_the_sea@hexbear.net 3 points 16 hours ago* (last edited 16 hours ago)

When people say its traceable yea , but to where? For me my phone is traceable but it ends there , its not traceable to me. Unless I got someone stalking me physically etc. Crypto is the same but easier. Its traceable to an anon wallet.

For boiling the oceans , well yea but not near to the amount that the fiat system does.. So I put this in the same category as moving to a cave to escape capitalism.

[-] thefluffiest@feddit.nl 1 points 13 hours ago* (last edited 13 hours ago)

For AI, use Mistral. French, and pretty good

For crypto pcash so you can pay for stuff anon. Also anon esim . meet i dont use , agree otherwise.

this post was submitted on 21 Dec 2025
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