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submitted 1 year ago by 0x815@feddit.de to c/news@beehaw.org
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[-] blazera@kbin.social 101 points 1 year ago

The big thing is the Hamas attack wasnt the start of all this. It wasnt Israel minding their own business and Hamas invading for the glory of Islam. The warning cries of a humanitarian crisis were going off long before this recent war, from international humanitarian agencies like Unicef. Gaza was being militarily oppressed by Israel, blocking humanitarian aid, international trade, even denying access to their own waters for fishing.

Civilians were dying off already as a result of Israel, and Israel ignored the warnings, the international community ignored the warnings, and then its shocked pikachus all around as a dying people fight back for survival.

[-] leetnewb@beehaw.org 56 points 1 year ago

You can point out back and forth violence going into the 1800s. Nobody has clean hands in this conflict.

[-] FlashMobOfOne@beehaw.org 70 points 1 year ago

Yeah, but siding with Israel here is the logical equivalent of siding with Andrew Jackson and supporting the Indian Removal Act as he committed genocide against the native people.

The power imbalance and how Israel has used it is what makes it imperative that Israel be held accountable by the international community.

[-] knokelmaat@beehaw.org 41 points 1 year ago

I'm glad you bring up the power imbalance. The "both sides have been doing horrible stuff" only works if both sides have equal footing, which they clearly do not. This does not negate the crimes commited by Hamas, but extremism doesn't come from nowhere and Israël has a responsibility in that.

[-] library_napper 12 points 1 year ago

Also disproportionate use of force is a war crime. We see Israel doing this in every war with Palestine since the Nakba.

[-] onkyo@lemmy.dbzer0.com 24 points 1 year ago

Except jews, christians and muslims lived pretty much peacefully together during ottoman rule. The violence worsened when britian controlled palestine and then became a lot worse during the nakba and israeli occupation. It's not about 'having clean hands'. It's about stopping genocide and understanding that occupation and colonialism leads to violent pushback. It always has and always will.

[-] sqgl@beehaw.org 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Wasn't the Ottoman period occupation/colonialism too? Not that I am in favour of imperialism but you do raise a fascinating point I wasn't aware of.

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[-] blazera@kbin.social 11 points 1 year ago

Mostly it goes back to the 1940's. There was more history of Zionism beforehand, Jewish settlers gradually coming in to live in the holy land. But after WW2 was the large influx and big push for a Jewish ethnostate. Aaand the people living there already opposed it from the start. And since then it's been very apparent why, because Israel pushes beyond the borders they were already given from Palestinian land, and militarily occupy the Palestinian land they dont yet claim.

[-] sqgl@beehaw.org 10 points 1 year ago

It was Arabs who did not accept those borders. They lost and Israel expanded.

What I have more of a problem with is the settlers in the WB and that seems to be Bibi's doing without much pushback from USA. Fascists gonna fasche.

[-] library_napper 11 points 1 year ago

They were never given a vote. The UN voted to take away the Palestinians' land, and the actual people living there weren't given a single fucking vote in the issue.

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[-] blazera@kbin.social 7 points 1 year ago

Why do i keep hearing it described like losing a game? Zionists invaded, murdered, and exiled palestinians from their land, that should "win" them nothing but opposition from the international community, same as happening with Russias invasion of Ukraine.

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[-] ParsnipWitch@feddit.de 7 points 1 year ago

It was not Palestine at that time though and Jews always lived in the area.

[-] library_napper 12 points 1 year ago

This issue has nothing to do with Jews. It has to do with Zionism.

Jews have lived there peacefully, yes. They did so without stealing their neighbors land. Its the Zionists that formed Israel and stole ~40% of Palesines land that caused the war.

There have always been Jews opposed to Zionism since the idea was first thought up.

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[-] Akasazh@feddit.nl 9 points 1 year ago

I do agree the Hamas attack wasn't the start of this. However tactically it was incredibly silly, honestly what did they think would happen?

They gave Netanyahu, who was finally fumbling at the reigns after almost thirty years aan excuse to execute his wet dreams and all of Israel uniting behind him.

I see no way how they could have thought the attack would benefit their cause.

[-] blazera@kbin.social 22 points 1 year ago

I dont think people are appreciating the context of Gazans dying off. It wasnt a stable situation that was fine to continue as it was going, imagine youre locked in a room with a lunatic with a knife trying to kill you. Youre not likely to beat the lunatic, but youre gonna try, you dont have any other options.

Waiting didnt work, protests didnt work, pleading with the international community didnt work, they cant leave. Everyone keeps saying they shouldnt have fought back, but what should they have done? Nothing is not available as an option.

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[-] TheSanSabaSongbird@lemdro.id 8 points 1 year ago

They did a little more than simply "fight back." They also engaged in widespread and utterly gratuitous acts of violence and torture in ways that can only have been calculated to trigger an overreaction on the part of Israel. They knew exactly what they were doing and what would happen. They obviously don't give a fuck about their own people.

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[-] FaulerFuffi@feddit.de 6 points 1 year ago

Why doesn't Egypt open the border?

[-] t3rmit3@beehaw.org 29 points 1 year ago

Because Israel will never let them back in if they leave. That is not hypothetical; it happened to thousands of Palestinians during the 6-day war, and their families are still stuck in Egypt, Syria, and Lebanon today.

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[-] bear@slrpnk.net 24 points 1 year ago

Why doesn't Israel stop doing things that require other countries to intervene

[-] Blackmist@feddit.uk 9 points 1 year ago

They don't want them either.

All the Arab world may be united in it's hatred of Israel, but that doesn't mean they like each other...

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[-] pixel@beehaw.org 66 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

This is a false equivalence. Most of the rhetoric I've seen about Hamas is that it's an inevitable consequence of Israel's treatment of restricting the Palestinian people to an open-air prison. Saying "We can't support either Hamas or Israel" ignores the fact that most people in favor of Palestine are in favor of the civilians, the people who did nothing and are still bombed and tortured and executed. Not to say that Hamas deserves to be bombed and tortured, they're citizens as well that shouldn't be in this situation in the first place, but the large majority of support is in favor of the Palestinian people more broadly that are just unfortunate enough to be adjacent to the conflict and are forced to deal with the consequences of Israel's bloodlust

to be clear: I do think Palestinians have a right to fight for their own freedom. But with the amount of disinformation at play here i don't know how many atrocities are actually committed by Hamas and how many are the result of Israeli misinformation campaigns. But the amount of any of that doesn't change how I feel -- Innocent civilians should never die in a conflict like this. I don't care if Hamas is doing it [edit: or not. The purpose of this statement is to show that I don't care if Hamas is doing something abhorrent and Israel isn't, or vice versa because it's irrelevant to the broader point. Just to clarify, my language was unclear], Israel is very clearly ALSO doing it, and it's abhorrent and gross no matter who. But in terms of the conceptual "high ground" the west likes to bandy around, Palestinians have a right to fight for its freedom from an occupying colonial force.

[-] FaulerFuffi@feddit.de 14 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Ok, so if I just take quite exactly your argument and say: I don't care if Israel is doing it, but Hamas is using violence, and THAT is abhorrent. Then what?

Sorry, but this abstraction and contextualisation is exactly wrong. This conflict is never ever going to be resolved if people do obviously wrong things for some abstract justification from A past they conceive.

Also your conspiracy take which makes you simply discard large chunk of information based on your gut feeling is just crazy. I find it quite audacious to say stuff like that and still fake a reasonable argumentation.

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[-] Nonameuser678@aussie.zone 8 points 1 year ago

Nothing justifies bombing children. Noone's 'right to defend themselves' should include this.

[-] ParsnipWitch@feddit.de 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Hamas also killed children and fires at Israel, so is Libanon. That children die is a consequence of the bombing. People pretend as if Israel is explicitly targeting groups of children to throw bombs at them. What you are saying is that people should not be at war and I agree.

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[-] DrJenkem@lemmy.blugatch.tube 37 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

The article opens with "what about America's response to 9/11?". JFC, what a shitty justification. America was clearly wrong to war crime all over Iraq just as Israel is in the wrong for warcriming all over Palestine. I refuse to "both sides" imperialists and their victims. Frankly, "both sides" is the trap one should avoid.

[-] Tavarin@lemmy.ca 7 points 1 year ago

Iraq

Afghanistan, Iraq was later and about fake WMDs.

[-] Zaktor@sopuli.xyz 10 points 1 year ago

Iraq was also a consequence of 9/11. It would never have happened without it.

[-] Tavarin@lemmy.ca 7 points 1 year ago

Arguable, Iraq was Bush Jr. finishing what his father started in the late 80s. It may well have happened even without 9/11. Afghanistan however was a direct consequence of 9/11, and is a more apt metaphor for what Israel is doing now.

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[-] marco@beehaw.org 33 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)
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[-] Pistcow@lemm.ee 26 points 1 year ago

The organizations are the ones that can fuck off. It's the people that are suffering.

[-] Robin_net@beehaw.org 23 points 1 year ago

Who is on Hamas's side? There are plenty of people on Palestine's side, but no one really wants to be on Hamas's side

[-] Pxtl@lemmy.ca 18 points 1 year ago

I've seen plenty of contrarian tankies who are pro Hamas. Often the same "anti imperialists" who hate the West so much they think supporting Ukraine is bad.

Personally I'm of the opinion that both sides are genocidal and anybody with a clear idea what to do there is lying, but I've been banned from !worldnews@lemmy.ml as "genocide denial" for agreeing with Biden that we should be suspicious of the claimed death numbers coming out of Palestine because both sides have a history of lying about violent acts in their conflict.

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[-] 0x815@feddit.de 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

@Robin.Net

I would agree, but there are people here on Lemmy and elsewhere who don't distinguish between Palestinian people and the Hamas. It's like a 'tankie' versus 'anti-tankie' game, 'us and them', and nothing in between. If you don't choose, each side accuses you of being the enemy.

Addition:

Just watched this interview (video + transcript). A journalist tells about his visit of tbe occupied territories in Palestine. At some point he arrives at one of the many checkpoints.

And I was walking to the checkpoint, and an Israeli guard stepped out, probably about the age of my son. And he said to me, “What’s your religion, bro?” And I said, “Well, you know, I’m not really religious.” And he said, “Come on. Stop messing around. What is your religion?” I said, “I’m not playing. I’m not really religious.” And it became clear to me that unless I professed my religion, and the right religion, I wasn’t going to be allowed to walk forward. So, he said, “Well, OK, so what was your parents’ religion?” I said, “Well, they weren’t that religious, either.” He says, “What were your grandparents’ religion?” And I said, “My grandmother was a Christian.” And then he allowed me to pass.

So there, even as you just walk around, you seem to be checked 'to whom you belong'.

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[-] dangblingus@lemmy.dbzer0.com 19 points 1 year ago

I pick the "innocent Gazan civilians just trying to live their lives but keep getting murdered by disproportionate force from the IDF" side.

Fuck Hamas. Fuck the IDF.

[-] Overzeetop@kbin.social 12 points 1 year ago

Terrorists and Religious zealots (a Venn diagram which is nearly a perfect, single circle) will never recognize basic humanity, because power and control are more important than any human life. To expect peace in a land claimed as sacred by multiple groups is simply guaranteeing unending violence.

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[-] Tamo@programming.dev 12 points 1 year ago

Not a fan of the framing here, 'were' vs 'would be' as if the later is just a hypothetical rather than the reality of civilians in Gaza.

[-] TinyPizza@kbin.social 12 points 1 year ago

New hot take in the rhetoric war: Both Sides

What a crock of shit.

[-] Five@slrpnk.net 11 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Slavoj Zizek gave a compelling speech along these lines. The reaction from the crowd and the heckling are really revealing about how divorced even progressive audiences have become from humanity.

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[-] ErinCrush@lemm.ee 11 points 1 year ago

Yikes. Tons of neo-lib shit takes in this comment section.

[-] jarfil@beehaw.org 13 points 1 year ago

Tons of neo-lib shit takes in this comment section.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism

Could you elaborate about which economic takes you'd want to criticize in this comment section, or did you mean to use a different term?

[-] Treczoks@lemm.ee 10 points 1 year ago

I actually never picked sides in that conflict. Both sides are nuts, the Hamas are terrorists, the IDF commits war crimes, they are both evil.

I propose putting a wall around the whole area and wait for the noise to stop, either by them getting their acts together, or by having killed each other.

[-] Asafum@feddit.nl 12 points 1 year ago

No one ever wants to try it, but I say instead of the US giving Israel money for military aid we instead give Jordan money to host the world's largest fried chicken festival, everyone loves fried chicken. We get Israel and Palestine empty and we give them all "I ❤️ NY" shirts so no one knows where anyone else is from. While they're all gone we completely fucking glass the "holy land." Nuke it all so no one can live there for 200+ years.

Maybe by then the people that exist as Israeli and Palestinians can stop with their religious war bullshit over a plot of land and maybe just get on with living a "good" life.

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[-] at_an_angle@lemmy.one 9 points 1 year ago

After closely following the Ukrainian War and learning all the nuances and history in that....I just don't have the energy or time to do the same about a whole new conflict.

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[-] someguy3@lemmy.ca 6 points 1 year ago

Yeah pretty much.

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this post was submitted on 01 Nov 2023
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