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submitted 1 year ago by GamerKick@lemm.ee to c/gaming@beehaw.org

Shuji Utsumi, Sega’s co-CEO, comments in a new statement that there is no point in implementing blockchain technology if it doesn’t make games ‘fun’.

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[-] storksforlegs@beehaw.org 38 points 1 year ago

He is right.

[-] reverendsteveii@beehaw.org 17 points 1 year ago

We're at the stage of capitalist indoctrination where even the games we play have to generate a sellable artifact of some sort or another. The number of games I see on the app store where you pretend to buy and sell land using real money has kinda become ridiculous.

[-] ConsciousCode@beehaw.org 5 points 1 year ago

Or better yet, games where you get monopoly money for pretending to do a job in the game

[-] frog@beehaw.org 16 points 1 year ago

I have never been able to figure out the answer to this, so maybe someone here knows: exactly how does one implement blockchain technology into a game, and what's the purpose of doing so? Like in terms of actual gameplay, what's it supposed to achieve? Is there a valid reason you'd want to include it?

[-] audaxdreik@pawb.social 30 points 1 year ago

There's no reason, and there never, ever, ever will be. Ever.

There's a temptation for a lot of people to shrug their shoulders and admit to themselves that it's a complicated topic outside of their reach, but it's honestly not. Like any technology, there's two sides to it: the implementation and the execution. The implementation is admittedly quite complicated and even honestly a little cool if you're a techie, but the execution is very simple. We know it's an append only database with a fully public history. That's all it is. So ask yourself how you could ever make that an interesting part of a game that would entice players to ... anything really. At best/worst it'll be used to introduce artificial scarcity and value which most people who just want to have fun playing games aren't clamoring for.

But more to the point, anything stored in a database needs to be actionable by a governing body. In terms of videogames, this is the game itself. The game is the authority on what can and can't be done with the data stored in the blockchain, you can't change the rules of the game, they're hard coded. So why bother having it publicly available on the blockchain at all? Sorry, not sure if I'm making my points clear enough, but does that follow? There's zero benefit to the public blockchain vs. an internal database because the game is the final authority and going to action on it the same either way. Owning something on the blockchain is useless, anyone who knows anything about games at all always knew that line about transferring items between games is total BS.

Any cryptobros already furiously typing out a response, don't bother. I'll argue any worthwhile points you might try to make, but I've heard most of the arguments before and they just don't even bear responding to so ya know ...

[-] Deestan@beehaw.org 4 points 1 year ago

The only plausible use case I could come up with is if a game company earnestly and legitimately wants to allow but outsource a real-money marketplace. As a cost saving measure for their own benefit.

If e.g. Diablo allowed legendaries to be owned based on an NFT, offered zero opinion on its legitimacy, said "whelp nothing we can do" to customers losing their items to scams or accidents, and didn't add any smart contract taxation or other shenanigans, it could work.

It wouldn't improve the game for the players, but it would finally be a legitimate use case that improved something for someone without being a pixellated ponzi scheme.

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[-] Oinks@feddit.de 19 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

It's all just buzzword bingo.

We can use the blockchain to track ownership of in game items!

That's just called a database. Databases on a central account server are several magnitudes more efficient. Using blockchains for this is stupid.

You can transfer game items from one game to another game!

This would be a ton of efforts on part of the devs, and even then it wouldn't really work in most cases because it turns out different games are different games. And even when it does the player experience of being handed end game items when starting a game is also questionable. Even if blockchains for games catch on, this idea never will.


The entire point of the blockchain is to create a decentralised zero trust database, but even if there are legitimate use cases for such a thing (which I'm not convinced of myself), games aren't one of them.

The reason the blockchain pops up in games (and everything else) is that cryptocurrencies have an extreme illiquidity problem and the crypto "millionaires/billionaires" need new fools to buy cryptocoins so they can turn their illiquid cryptocoin "fortunes" into actual fortunes. This is why NFTs exist, this is why Axie Infinity (which is just NFTs with a terrible game built around them) exists, and sometimes they also dupe established companies into motioning something in the direction of "the future" (every crypto game project by an actual game studio).

[-] InEnduringGrowStrong@lemm.ee 3 points 1 year ago

NFTs: Block chain based money laundering.
But I guess BCBML didn't sound as good.

[-] reverendsteveii@beehaw.org 2 points 1 year ago

That’s just called a database.

That's the rub. Eventually blockchain will be useful for tracking ownership of things like land and cars, whose current ownership is tracked by an analog token minted by a a validator and stored offline (which is to say, the government has a piece of paper on file). I recently bought a house, and I had to buy mortgage insurance in case it turns out that 50 years ago someone fraudulently or mistakenly sold this house to someone else when they didn't actually own it, and then I bought it from the guy who bought it from the guy who bought it from the guy who bought it from the guy who bought it from the guy who sold it illegally, so it's not really mine. Blockchain will eliminate that. Game companies mint tokens to represent digital "assets" that they say you "own" but in reality it's the asset creator that can make more of the asset, destroy the asset or deny others usage of the asset (which is the real, functional definition of "own").

I'm still working my way through my thoughts on this after Bored Ape Money Pit but I think that blockchain is one of the infinite number of ways that traditional ownership models are trying to impose themselves on digital assets when it's the fundamental nature of digital assets to be infinitely replicable for a cost so low as to approach $0/per, and to make it very hard to exclude people from having or using these replicas. I work in software. We're getting to a point where the real value in software is in designing ways to stop people from using it unless they've met certain conditions (usually, having paid for a license). Most of what I do is authentication and authorization. That is to say, determining who a user is and what they're allowed to do. These are external, artificial controls. In real life when you eat an apple the apple is gone. When you and your family live in a house, that house is full of people. When you "eat" (or in some other way extract the value from) a digital apple that apple can still be there. An infinite number of people can exist in one digital space via instantiation without ever having to acknowledge one another. Digital assets defy exclusivity, and without exclusivity their can't be ownership. So what we end up with is a million people who have the same bit-for-bit perfect picture of a monkey, but one guy who has a certificate from the monkey picture center that says he's the "owner" of the monkey picture when ownership doesn't really confer any rights, privileges or abilities that everyone else didn't already get for free.

[-] ricecake@beehaw.org 7 points 1 year ago

I'm not sure I agree with your mortgage insurance example.

The problem isn't record keeping, but answering the question "if you use an asset as collateral for a loan to purchase that asset, what happens to the loan if the purchase is invalidated"?

Block chain might make title searches easier, but it wont have any impact whatsoever on the existence of a legal system that can independently audit and invalidate contracts after the fact.

The asset isn't digital, so ownership can't be enforced digitally.
The current system is a pile of digital databases and paper records that need to be checked before sales can happen. Actual questions or disputes are handled by the courts. Block chain can't change that, only change the underlying way we store the data.

[-] reverendsteveii@beehaw.org 2 points 1 year ago

The problem isn’t record keeping, but answering the question “if you use an asset as collateral for a loan to purchase that asset, what happens to the loan if the purchase is invalidated”?

And the solution to that problem is good record keeping. Blockchain can improve the record keeping by making it public and verifiable.

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[-] jrandomhacker@beehaw.org 4 points 1 year ago

The thing is - how will your blockchain-based mortgage be enforced? What happens if I start squatting on your blockchain-property? At the end of the day, the answer is "people with guns" - we agree that contracts have legal weight, and there are legal structures (and ultimately law enforcement and their threat of force) that keep you on your land and me out of it. And if we already have to involve all that, what good is blockchain doing that "a database" can't do?

[-] phoenixes@beehaw.org 3 points 1 year ago

There's a great video about the inherent problems with crypto stuff and contract law here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6aeL83z_9Y

Mostly about the inherent legal unenforcability of contracts on the blockchain.

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[-] reverendsteveii@beehaw.org 2 points 1 year ago

blockchain provides a publicly verifiable transaction history. of course enforcing exclusivity eventually boils down to giving some group a monopoly on violence, but the difference between using blockchain and a database in tracking who has the right to use that monopoly on violence to enforce their exclusivity is whether there's a verifiable public record of all transactions or just the current state of the data. It allows for the dispute of falsified records, and the automatic verification that all terms of the transfer between owners were met. It doesn't allow someone to sneak behind the scenes and do a quick "DELETE FROM home_owners WHERE owner_name='jrandomhacker'" and then go "Sorry, we don't have a record of your transaction 🤷🤷". You could make the logs of the database public, of course, but then the question just expands from "who has access to the database?" to "who has access to the database and logs?"

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[-] cosmic_skillet@lemmy.ml 13 points 1 year ago

Yeah I've been wondering the same thing too, like what's the point? I've seen some devs try to use blockchain for tracking ownership of items, so you could trade/sell items to others and it would all be tracked and verified through the blockchain. But if you're playing a game that's hosted by a centralized server, then just use a database. I don't see any benefit for a decentralized blockchain when you're playing on a centralized server.

[-] SuperZutsuki@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago

There isn't a use case. They created a product and keep trying to shoehorn it into any industry they can.

[-] TassieTosser@aussie.zone 8 points 1 year ago

The use case is being a buzzword they can use to scam cryptobros and the gullible.

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[-] Noit@lemm.ee 10 points 1 year ago

The only justification I’ve ever been able to think of is Pokémon. The idea is supposed to be that every Pokémon is unique but there’s actually only a limited set of variables to define each individual ‘mon. I can trade you a Zubat I just caught and it can be identical to one that I first caught in Fire Red twenty years ago and have traded through every game since.

If each Pokémon was truly unique and on the blockchain, it could be meaningful in ways they currently aren’t. There could be only one Coalossal that Wolfe Glick won the Player’s Cup with. He could trade it away for charity and someone would pay for it. I could trade Pokémon away and track them as they’re traded around the world.

It’d be cool. But it would not meaningfully make the game more fun. And it’s Nintendo so they’re never going to do blockchain. And that is the best pitch I can give you.

[-] TofuScramble@beehaw.org 10 points 1 year ago

And even then, you could still do that unique Pokemon idea without using a blockchain. Use unique identifiers in a good old database, or, heck, just tell the user with words, “there are many pidgeottos but this one is yours”.

A blockchain idea has to not only be a good idea, but also not possible with simpler technology for it to be genuinely worthwhile.

[-] Powerpoint@lemmy.ca 5 points 1 year ago

This isn't even necessary to do. You can already do this with systems in place. There's no good use of nfts/blockchain except if your goal is to scam people.

[-] cosmic_skillet@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago

I've got to give you credit, this is the first time I'm hearing of a situation where blockchain actually serves a purpose in a game. It's a pretty niche scenario, but yeah it would add some value in this case.

So basically if something in a game (item, character, account, etc) needs to persist beyond the game then blockchain could be a solution. You could probably still do this with some kind of traditional database, but maybe blockchain has some technical advantage?

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[-] xavier666@lemm.ee 8 points 1 year ago

Simple rule of thumb; any time someone says blockchain in a sentence, replace it with "big slow database". Now you can think about it clearly.

[-] frog@beehaw.org 2 points 1 year ago

Thanks, that's helpful! I've had a lot of really good responses from everyone about various use cases for blockchains in games, but "big slow database" does seem to sum up most of them remarkably well!

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[-] squirrel@lemmy.blahaj.zone 7 points 1 year ago

The most successful example for a blockchain game is "Axie Infinity" which is something of a Pokémon-like. It used blockchain technology to track the unique "Axies" (= Pokémons) which could be traded and sold. So the blockchain was used to do just that.
The big promise of games like "Axie Infinity" was "play-to-earn", games which allowed players to earn money through playing the game, such as trading in "Axie Infinity".

Could this only be done with blockchain? No. All of that could technically also be achieved by other means.
So ultimately all of the talk about the blockchain was mostly PR and a way to distinguish the game. Nobody would have cared about it, if it had not had this feature. Which is very representative of all blockchain games.

The talk of how blockchain technology would allow players to transfer items from one game to another; or create unique characters which could be transfered between games; etc. have always been pipe dreams, They would have required a level of cooperation between publishers and developers of games that was simply impossible to achieve.

As a footnote: The use of blockchain in "Axie Infinity" ultimately resulted in an in-game economy that was largely a pyramid scheme. The game is still there, but the economy imploded and most players only ever made cents, if they earned anything through the game at all.

[-] Hellebert@beehaw.org 8 points 1 year ago

That "play-to-earn" system ended up just being a means for people to exploit others in poorer counties to grind countless hours in the game for a pittance.

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[-] Hellebert@beehaw.org 5 points 1 year ago

It's only purpose is to monetize your gameplay time with some kind of real world "value".

Everything else is just the lies they tell you to get away with enshitifying the game.

[-] Oinks@feddit.de 3 points 1 year ago

You're not wrong, but MMOs have been enshittifying the gaming experience by selling in game items in a shop for decades. Many even have player trading systems which inevitably create a real money black market for the game. While most don't legitimise this in the way blockchain games do, there's no technological reason they couldn't, only legislative ones.

The only thing the "blockchain" part actually does is allow you to add another buzzword to your project and company, as well as make all of this cost a lot more electricity.

[-] Thebazilly@pathfinder.social 2 points 1 year ago

So far it seems to be to make money off gold grinding in the Philippines if Axie Infinity is any indication.

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[-] king_dead@beehaw.org 8 points 1 year ago

They're absolutely right. Blockchain is a good representation of whats wrong in tech

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[-] Hirom@beehaw.org 8 points 1 year ago

Things I often find lacking in videos games: good storytelling, adjustable subtitle/UI size, immersive world with adequate pattern of life (eg background characters, random environment animations, ...).

Things I don't miss: NFTs, microtransactions, constant in-game awards/points collections.

[-] Krakatoa@lemmy.film 4 points 1 year ago

That's the biggest issue with a lot of Blockchain or micro transaction games; they are first and foremost a way to make money for the company. Look at any web3.0 nft game on the market. All the marketing is "play to earn" bullshit. If a company really wanted NFTs or whatever to take off, make an exciting, engaging, fun to play game and then you can get a player base nft or no.

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[-] ConsciousCode@beehaw.org 8 points 1 year ago

Calling blockchains in video games "boring" is like calling backface culling "boring". It's an algorithm, not a game mechanic. Companies make it boring by treating it like one.

[-] EremesZorn@beehaw.org 37 points 1 year ago

Backface culling provides efficiency and performance. Blockchains provide nothing that can't already be done through more efficient means. There is literally no viable use case for blockchain or NFTs in video games, which is exactly why every implementation has righteously failed or never got off the ground to begin with.

[-] ConsciousCode@beehaw.org 10 points 1 year ago

Efficiency and performance are valuable, not entertaining. My point is that "boring" is a category error for these things, they aren't game mechanics and they have no entertainment value.

I wouldn't go so far as to say there's no viable use-case, but every example I've seen has been a terrible misappropriation. This is largely because they make the mistake of inclusion of an algorithm to somehow be featureful or entertaining. As I see it, this discussion is a bit like ransomware becoming very prolific and people are saying there are no viable use-cases for encryption because it's been used to scam so many people.

To be clear, literally all NFTs are is a key: value mapping on a blockchain. That has nothing to do with finance, art, games, or anything else associated with them at present - the value of a tool is in how it's used. They've been used extensively by shitty people, so now people only know of the shitty ways to use them.

[-] argv_minus_one@beehaw.org 12 points 1 year ago

That's an iffy analogy. Backface culling makes for a higher frame rate, which makes the game more enjoyable (or playable at all).

[-] alehel@beehaw.org 2 points 1 year ago

Yeah, but it doesn't seem like he actually said that if you read the article.

[-] ConsciousCode@beehaw.org 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

The article is more correct than what I've been seeing in this thread - their inclusion doesn't make games fun, which is correct. People are essentializing the use-cases of an algorithm, some saying NFTs make a game fun (somehow?) and others pointing out that they're trash cash grabs that seem to actively make the experience worse.

My mistake, I should've read the article. I didn't think OP editorialized the title.

[-] shiveyarbles@beehaw.org 6 points 1 year ago

It's trying to shoehorn a technology where it adds zero value.

[-] Marxine@lemmy.ml 4 points 1 year ago

My past child self feels vindicated for being a Sega fan.

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this post was submitted on 07 Jul 2023
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