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submitted 2 months ago by Buttflapper@lemmy.world to c/games@lemmy.world

As someone who grew up playing games like World of Warcraft and other AAA titles, I’ve seen how the gaming industry has evolved over the years—and not always for the better. One of the most disturbing trends is the rise of gacha games, which are, at their core, thinly veiled gambling systems targeting younger players. And I think it’s time we have a serious conversation about why this form of gaming needs to be heavily restricted, if not outright regulated.

Gacha systems prey on players by offering a sense of excitement and reward, but at the cost of their mental health and well-being. These games are often marketed as "free to play," making them seem harmless, but in reality, they trap players in cycles of spending and gambling. You don’t just buy a game and enjoy its content—you gamble for the chance to get characters, equipment, and other in-game items. It’s all based on luck, with very low odds of getting what you want, which leads players to keep spending in hopes of hitting that jackpot.

This setup is psychologically damaging, especially for younger players who are still developing their sense of self-control. Gacha games condition them to associate spending money with emotional highs, which is the exact same mechanism that fuels gambling addiction. You might think it's just harmless fun, but it’s incredibly easy to fall into a pattern where you're constantly chasing that next dopamine hit, just like a gambler sitting at a slot machine. Over time, this not only leads to financial strain but also deeply ingrained mental health issues, such as anxiety, depression, and a lack of self-control when it comes to spending money.

Countries like Belgium and the Netherlands have already banned loot boxes and gacha systems, recognizing the dangers they pose, especially to younger players. The fact that these systems are still largely unregulated in many other regions, including the U.S., shows just how out of control things have gotten. The gaming industry has shifted from offering well-rounded experiences to creating systems designed to exploit players’ psychological vulnerabilities.

We need to follow Europe’s lead in placing heavy restrictions on gacha and loot boxes. It’s one thing to pay for a game and know what you're getting; it's another to be lured into a never-ending cycle of gambling for content that should be available as part of the game. Gaming should be about fun, skill, and exploration, not exploiting people’s mental health for profit.

It's time for developers and legislators to take responsibility and start protecting the players, especially the younger ones, from these predatory practices.

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[-] SnotFlickerman@lemmy.blahaj.zone 146 points 2 months ago

It’s time for developers and legislators to take responsibility and start protecting the players, especially the younger ones, from these predatory practices.

They're making fucking bank with these practices. It will have to be stopped by government regulation. Self-regulation of industries has literally never fucking worked once in history. Look at Boeing, which has had the FAA basically glad-handing it for 50 years and it's falling apart at the seams (sometimes literally).

It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.

-Upton Sinclair

[-] dormedas@lemmy.dormedas.com 49 points 2 months ago

I mean, look how fast the ENTIRE industry shifted to battle passes (and still gacha) and away from “loot boxes” the very moment the first country said they’d consider regulation.

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[-] Grangle1@lemm.ee 13 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Even the ESRB, another example of gaming industry self-regulation, hasn't stopped gaming companies marketing M-rated games to kids or really slowed down sales or access to such games to underage players at all. If anything, they use the M rating as a direct marketing tool to kids: "your parents wouldn't want you to play this so you totally should".

EDIT: autocorrect is dumb

[-] SnotFlickerman@lemmy.blahaj.zone 13 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Ah yes, the ESRB, the group built to avoid actual regulation.

I mean, I get it, to an extent, the MPAA was and is absolute dogshit and filled with weird right-wing Christians who don't like things that show women's sexual pleasure and a lot of other weird censorial decisions.

Like how Hillary Clinton wanted to ban GTA because of the Hot Coffee mod, when the actual "Hot Coffee" minigame wasn't available in an easily accessible way.

So, to that extent, I can understand why they built that system to avoid idiot fucking puritans taking over the ratings sytem, but I generally agree, it's become more of a taboo thing just like the "PARENTAL WARNING EXPLICIT LYRICS" just made people want that version more. (That really worked out, huh, Tipper Gore?)

Without actual enforcement, it becomes something cool for kids to get.

[-] Ashtear@lemm.ee 9 points 2 months ago

The AO rating is still the kiss-of-death for game content in North America, enforced by retailers. Even still, the ESRB only came about because the political climate at the time was very much "clean up your shit or we'll do it for you."

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[-] Meltrax@lemmy.world 53 points 2 months ago

You're like 5 years late on this realization. Unfortunately not much is changing.

[-] HK65@sopuli.xyz 28 points 2 months ago

It seems the EU is moving on this issue with their usual tectonic speed.

https://dailywrap.ca/video-game-giants-face-eu-scrutiny-over-exploitative-microtransactions,7070300439647873a

Let's hope they also hit with their usual tectonic force.

[-] lolcatnip@reddthat.com 12 points 2 months ago

Compared to the US, the EU is lightning fast. California probably beats them sometimes, though.

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[-] ampersandrew@lemmy.world 49 points 2 months ago

Without being a gacha game, World of WarCraft is guilty of a lot of the same stuff. You probably know people who flunked out of college due to the addiction, or have heard of parents who neglected their child over that game. It preys on a lot of the same impulses that Diablo and Diablo II seemed to have found by accident, before they were monetized by subscription fees and then microtransactions. And you can see a lot of the same in games like Destiny.

[-] greenskye@lemm.ee 8 points 2 months ago

Haven't played WoW in awhile, but do they now have 'you can spend unlimited money' mechanics? Previously it was just stuff like mounts and character transfers and stuff. I know you can also sell tokens for gold, but I thought gold kind of becomes irrelevant at some point. The best gear is bind on drop right? Theoretically I guess you can pay gold for boost runs, which probably counts as an endless money sink.

I kind of have a mental separation in my head between games with unlimited money sinks (like games with energy mechanics) where you can spend and spend and spend and it never stops, vs games that have a finite of things to buy.

It can still be way over priced, but there's a maximum amount of money you can throw at the game. Even Diablo 4, with a relatively huge and highly priced number of cosmetic items has effectively a maximum price (though every new cosmetic increases that price). Vs Diablo Immortal allowing you to spend 10s of thousands of dollars and still need to keep spending. I think unlimited money mechanics should be outlawed or at least fully classified as gambling and regulated accordingly.

[-] ampersandrew@lemmy.world 9 points 2 months ago

I think keeping you addicted so as to continue to paying a monthly subscription is bad on its own, and I don't think it needs to be qualified by how much you spend overall if they're still knowingly capitalizing on that addiction in an unregulated environment. But also, while I don't know the answer to your question for a fact, I would imagine that they do have ways to spend unlimited money in that game if you're so inclined.

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[-] Fleur_@lemm.ee 39 points 2 months ago

Don't gamble please for the love of fuck, all gambling is mathematically designed to never pay off for the one gambling

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[-] Blackmist@feddit.uk 36 points 2 months ago

Quite a few years ago now I went to my nan's house for Christmas.

My cousin, I think he was about 13, had got a £50 Steam voucher for some games. Him and my other cousin who was a couple of year older went to Steam, swapped the voucher for something, and then took that to a gambling site. I don't know if they're still a thing. It was something to do with Counter Strike drops I think. Heavily advertised by YouTubers who ran them, with a bunch of videos showing them winning. The sort of thing they'd be sent to prison for in any right thinking society.

They took that £50, put it in, and clicked. The younger one went "what now?" and the older one just went "oh, nothing. It's gone." A couple of games worth of money, gone. For nothing.

He looked like he was about to cry, and only didn't because he was going through that acting tough phase.

He's an accountant now, and plays crown green bowling. I like to think that was a relatively cheap lesson in why not to fuck around with gambling.

[-] barsquid@lemmy.world 9 points 2 months ago

That's so devastating. I feel awful when kids are let down like that.

[-] derpgon@programming.dev 9 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

At least that lesson cost mere £50 and not thousands of pounds if he won and wanted to chase that dopamine hit of winning.

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[-] lorty@lemmy.ml 7 points 2 months ago

Seems about right. CSGO skin gambling was all the rage 10 years ago.

[-] peopleproblems@lemmy.world 29 points 2 months ago

Sure, but, technically, without Gacha games I would t have discovered my ex wife sexting another dude. Because she was attempting to hide the money she spent in credit cards I didn't have access to, then wanted me to pay.

Which led me to digging around, discovering the unaltered statement, then she got drunk and the phone was open in her hand playing some stupid virtual bingo and a snap popped up and wouldnt you know it

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[-] catloaf@lemm.ee 27 points 2 months ago

Assuming "we" is the US, write your state and federal representatives, not Lemmy. People might agree with you, but you're preaching to the choir.

[-] megalow@lemmy.today 21 points 2 months ago

How about both? Writing your elected reps is definitely smart, but will be much more effective if there are numerous people calling for the same. I appreciate OP sharing their views, and catloaf sharing a specific action step all of us can do it we are concerned about this matter.

I worked for a few years as a gambling addiction counselor, and these types of games definitely prime people for addiction to gambling. Also, it's worth noting that the demographic with the highest rates of gambling addiction are young men, aged 18-24.

Anyone that's been to a casino can attest that major video game companies also make slot machines. The industry are aware of what they're doing.

[-] Peruvian_Skies@sh.itjust.works 26 points 2 months ago

I was a young idiot making minimum wage and I spent 500 dollars in a gacha game over a three month period. It's been years and I still wake up at night, remember this and feel the strongest remorse.

[-] stoly@lemmy.world 12 points 2 months ago

I’m sorry, it really sounds like it turned into an addiction for you. Very happy that you got away from it. Be careful with addictive substances or activities in your life, some people have a predisposition for it.

[-] Peruvian_Skies@sh.itjust.works 5 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Thank you! I very much have that predisposition. I've noticed that I have addictive behavior towards sugar and caffeine as well (I'm fine as long as I don't have any, but if I have some I'll continue to crave more at shorter and shorter intervals until I go to sleep and it resets), and recently celebrated my third month nicotine free after about four years total smoking and then vaping.

Addictive proclivities are a personal defect normally. But when you exist in a context where there are people whose job it is to get you hooked on things, they become a handicap.

[-] Zahille7@lemmy.world 7 points 2 months ago

I spent $800 on Fallout: Shelter

[-] Peruvian_Skies@sh.itjust.works 8 points 2 months ago

Fuck, my condolences.

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[-] SlopppyEngineer@lemmy.world 23 points 2 months ago

Government should set up a site where companies using loot boxes have to open a tax box to know what tax they'll pay that month, to keep things exiting, with the option to buy more tax boxes for a few million per box.

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[-] schizo@forum.uncomfortable.business 23 points 2 months ago

As someone who plays a gacha game (Genshin Impact) I 100% agree. This shit should be kept the hell out of the hands of kids until their brain has at least matured to the point we'd let them go actual gambling.

That said, there's certainly a spread of abusiveness in the games: some are very reasonable and could be played with no money or very little money because they're generous with premium currencies and others are doing a sexy little dance while they steal your wallet.

Regulation around how much you can spend in a month would be reasonable, no kids would be reasonable, requiring clear and published probabilities and what those probabilities mean in terms of how many pulls would be a good start.

I can assure you most gacha players cannot tell you how many pulls you'd need to make for a 0.5% chance pull.

Also maybe outline estimated costs for winning wouldn't be awful, but that's maybe not feasible since there's a lot of variability?

[-] 4am@lemm.ee 13 points 2 months ago

Knowing the odds doesn’t stop children from developing a gambling habit.

We were on the way to banning gambling a couple decades ago, it was illegal online and it was hard for new casinos to open up. Sports betting was illegal.

Now we’ve got FanDuel and gacha and loot boxes and crypto casinos and shitcoin shoveling influencers all this awful shit. And if you look around, the biggest shitbag bullies are the ones who are promoting it, because they know they’ll get their bag and their fans will never turn on them.

You know, because they might win next time.

These people are child predators, just not (always) the sexual kind. Fucking ban it all.

Knowing the odds doesn’t stop children from developing a gambling habit.

Agreed, and this is why I'm firmly on the no-kids side of things.

If you can't go to a casino until you're 21, why exactly should you be able to gamble online (in any form!) until then either?

[-] HakFoo@lemmy.sdf.org 9 points 2 months ago

Gacha can be moderately acceptable if the math is fully documented and enforced. If you know it will take <= 180 pulls to get Raiden Shogun, and each pull costs $3, then it's just a $540 DLC with extra steps and the tease thst it might be cheaper if you're lucky or have banked pulls.

But transparency is key-- the developer should be expected to offer a calculator or lookup table for any RNG item, especially if it's some combination of multiple drop mechanics or hsrd-to-convert currencies that dissuades back-of-the-envelope estimates.

Even in Vegas, the slot machines are required to disclose their payout rate.

There's also significant differences in the gacha appeal factor. If there are no leaderboards or PvP, and the game mechanics can be completed with F2P only, that is inherently less pressure to spend then on a game where you regularly get your ass handed to you by a someone with a Black Amex and all seven-star limited banner units.

Agreed on P2P gacha games. Those are just gross as fuck, since as you said, they're explicitly pay-to-win.

Genshin does, for the most part, provide very clear percentages and how the math works out, so you can actually do that but they're certainly a rarity. I will say, though, that while they do provide that information it's also in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet in a disused lavatory with a 'beware of the leopard' sign.

You can find it if you know where it is, but your average user isn't going to know the magic things you should click on to get from the wish screen to the page on the website where they outline specific odds and pull rates, which eh, not a fan of making that so obscure.

Also: not a fan of the sell you a currency you have to convert to another currency to convert to a 3rd thing that then can be used for gambling thing. There shouldn't be more than one level of obscuring between your money and the final item you need - Genshin goes from Crystals to Primogems to Wishes, and that's almost entirely to be sure to confuse people how much that wish actually cost, since you've got a lot of math to do to get back to what you orginally paid for the Crystals.

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[-] Miphera@lemmy.world 21 points 2 months ago

At least make all gacha games R18, no kids should be exposed to this stuff.

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[-] merthyr1831@lemmy.ml 16 points 2 months ago

We had to convince my brother in law (13yo) to not spend his birthday money of £85 on Genshin impact skins. Kids are fucked by advertising man

[-] BruceTwarzen@lemm.ee 6 points 2 months ago

I'm no stranger to people paying for skins and all, but when i first heard that kids want vbucks as a Christmas gift my stomach kinda turned.

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[-] Katana314@lemmy.world 14 points 2 months ago

It’s a small measure, but I’d really like to see a law where gacha games need to publicly advertise their odds and allow independent verification.

The biggest effect it would have is, the odds would need to be static. Many gacha systems have been accused of putting a hand on the wheel, assuring someone “so close to their needed item” must keep going through a series of failures.

[-] trashgirlfriend@lemmy.world 8 points 2 months ago

This is already a thing in most gacha games due to laws that already exist in certain countries.

The way the gacha works is very public knowledge for every popular one, and can be verified by the players.

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[-] isolatedscotch@discuss.tchncs.de 13 points 2 months ago

I swear the post sounds like an LLM so much, but if it isn't, congrats to OP on the writing skills

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[-] texasspacejoey@lemmy.ca 11 points 2 months ago

Also it should be required to display prices in local currency. I spent 2.99usd on that fox card game. Ended up costing me 5 bucks canadian

[-] DeathsEmbrace@lemm.ee 6 points 2 months ago

Look at the mobile game industry if cancer could manifest as a software this industry is spreading it like oil and gas.

[-] NIB@lemmy.world 6 points 2 months ago

World of Warcraft and Diablo are gacha. Every time you play, you are "pulling" and hoping for a good drop(item). What modern gacha games did, is take that gameplay/psychological feature and directly monetize it(instead of indirectly monetizing it through a subscription/1 time payment).

But both are gambling. I am ok with having age restrictions but we need to be honest with ourselves. And what is "fun" is whatever makes neurons activate. Gambling(ie rpg elements) has always been a core mechanic for many games.

[-] Goronmon@lemmy.world 9 points 2 months ago

But both are gambling.

Nah, they are not comparable in a meaningful way. Sure, at a high level, you can apply aspects of "gambling" to both examples. But the biggest and most important point is the ability to spend actual money for additional changes at "winning".

People are against gaming because of some deep-seating fear of Random Number Generation by itself. They are against it because of how easy it is to lose money.

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[-] paddirn@lemmy.world 5 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

I started playing one of the Gacha games a few months back now, Watcher of Realms, I think the only reason I started was because it showed jiggling boobies in a trailer. The name is goofy and the story is almost non-existant, the gameplay isn't terribly deep, but has some nuances to it, it's like a tower defense RPG game. It's kind of dumb as a game because it records your playthroughs of scenarios that you can then use later on to "Auto-fight" for you as you frequently have to grind for different shit. So you basically set the game on auto-pilot and stop playing the game. I've been playing for something like 6 months now, but I've been committed from the start to never pay a single dime for it and I've stuck with that the entire time. Granted, I've put way too much time into the game and, if time is money, I've wasted a bunch that way, but I've never actually paid for anything in currency. Cheap skate 4 life. I honestly don't know why I keep playing, knowing what the game is setup for, but I still log in day after day.

I can definitely see how it encourages players to spend money, there's so many mini-currencies within the game that obfuscate what you need to do to earn this or that hero or get whatever thing you're trying for, but ultimately the incentive is to buy shit to get further along. In this game though, the rates are so goddamn ridiculous that you'd have to be an impatient jackass to pay the rates they want for simple things that don't even give any guarantees of better performance in the game. On the one hand, I thing games like this are evil for trying to take advantage of people, but on the other, if you're that stupid and that rich that you have money to burn on a game like this... maybe throwing your money away on digital stuff isn't the worse thing you could be wasting your money on (like real world drugs or donating to Trump or something stupid like that). But yes, for kids who haven't mentally developed yet, there probably should be some sort of protections for them, since they'll pay for dumb shit at the drop of a hat.

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this post was submitted on 15 Sep 2024
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