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Like, why is it so widespread, what causes it, what solutions are available, etc. I don't really know how to ask this question so I hope I'm making sense

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[-] untorquer@lemmy.world 7 points 5 months ago

Gender division and masculinity is trained into us from the second our genitals are identified be it sonogram or at birth. From the colors, toys, media, to early childhood social pressures were pushed into one of two molds. If a boy interacts with a girl it's labelled as boyfriend girlfriend even if there's no romantic intent (because why would children have that?). But the point is that masculinity [and femininity] is programmed throughout the core development of the brain. Unless there's a motivation to question it that developed neuron architecture only gets reinforced. By the time you're able to question it you're so set in the concrete it takes years or decades of struggle to unlearn the worst traits. When you unlearn them it's a threat to people who haven't had to question it.

When you're emotionally isolated from yourself, and surrounded by others who are also emotionally isolated, you're not motivated to be around them since they won't fulfill your needs. Then, you realize you're also not comfortable enough to bridge the divide to people who are in touch with their own emotions. So all this hard work and you're only a few steps down the path to connection. Usually with little sense of where to go from there.

When you finally get to the point of diving in and expressing emotionally outward, it's easy to get wrapped with anxiety. You expect others to push you away, not because they will, most people respond well, but because you're even less oriented and more vulnerable than ever. Though i would argue less fragile.

Lots of other posts discussing things like whether other people in the age group are socially available, and lack of third spaces.

[-] nifty@lemmy.world 1 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

But the point is that masculinity [and femininity] is programmed throughout the core development of the brain. Unless there’s a motivation to question it that developed neuron architecture only gets reinforced. By the time you’re able to question it you’re so set in the concrete it takes years or decades of struggle to unlearn the worst traits. When you unlearn them it’s a threat to people who haven’t had to question it.

Except for children with autism, I’d say. My mom couldn’t get me to be girly or feminine while I was growing up, I just did what made sense, sometimes that was a girly or feminine thing and other times not.

Maybe the patriarchy is an allistic people problem lol.

[-] Bacano@lemmy.world 6 points 5 months ago

Sex researchers Baumeister and Tice wrote about sexual economics.

"A heterosexual community can be analyzed as a marketplace in which men seek to acquire sex from women by offering other resources in exchange."

From an evolutionary standpoint it makes sense that women wouldn't want a partner that can't provide security for the couple when the woman would be vulnerable if pregnant/nursing.

Young men in particular have fewer resources of value to offer than at any time in most people's lives. To that point, it's not like young women are dating any better, so even if they are willing to be the sole provider, most are unable to do so.

With the traditional partnership which historically provided companionship out of the question, men are left yearning for female companionship.

Another point the researchers make, is that men will always yearn, while women have a generally easier time abstaining until conditions are right.

[-] gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.de 4 points 5 months ago

I think it's because people are overworked. No time for love, no time for friendship, sometimes not even enough time to take care of yourself properly.

[-] dukeofdummies@lemmy.world 4 points 5 months ago

I don't even think it's an exclusively male thing. It's just getting harder and harder to meet people and mingle. Men are just feeling it harder and sooner.

It's harder to meet people now. I think part of it is:

  1. That people used to be bored. You would make entertainment where you could find it, and two bored people can rapidly get entertained. Now you have a phone that makes you not bored, and de-incentivizes face to face interaction.

  2. There used to be more places where people interacted. Masons, elk lodge, unions, they would often serve alcohol at events, for dirt cheap. They were known as third places, somewhere other than work and home. One thing I hear from a lot of smokers is that the smoking areas are where people hang out to talk, and they do. It's where conversations happen at a club. It gives you something to do when you're not talking, a reason to stand somewhere close to people, and a perfect excuse to jump into a conversation. It's kinda infuriating that it also shaves two minutes off your life -_-.

  3. People have less time. Younger generations are working multiple jobs, gigs with unpredictable hours, often times having commutes of an hour which turns a 9 to 5 into an 8 to 6, and spending all their vacation hours on the shit that has to be done on a weekday like the DMV or the like. How are you supposed to make a friend when schedules differ so much that a spreadsheet is required to make it work?

[-] zipzoopaboop@lemmynsfw.com 1 points 5 months ago

Male culture also tends to avoid building real relationships and hiding their feelings, and depending on how they look people are scared to be around them. Effort needs to be taken for most men to unlearn toxic traits of the past, which it seems like younger kids today are getting better at avoiding, but there's definitely a handicap for most men here.

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[-] LandedGentry@lemmy.zip 1 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

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[-] Natanael@slrpnk.net 3 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

Culture of excessive individuality and independence plus macho culture

Lack of intergenerational teaching and connections to help kids mature when growing up

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[-] daniskarma@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

I think that many of the approaches that tried to explain it are mostly dangerous.

Like blaming it on gender norms, and toxic masculinity, the most common answer. Because plenty of men who do not comply to gender norms or toxic masculinity (or masculinity at all) still feel alone. And their experience get invalidated by this explanation.

I think a more neutral approach is needed to explain it. Instead of trying to take some explanation that fits your political views and then try to push it as a solution to the problem, the problem should be investigated by itself, and once an explanation is reached accept it even if it does not fit your political mindset.

One hint is that most people that feel alone lack a romatic relationship, the most common approach seems to be that "nah romatic relationships are not needed and we will not even consider them part of the problem". When it's pretty obviously that the lack of this kind of relationships is fundamental in male loneliness.

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[-] UltraGiGaGigantic@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Toxic masculinity makes men feel like they need to be strong independent and suffer silently.

As for the other side of the coin, i would guess the Women Are Wonderful Effect.

[-] LouNeko@lemmy.world 2 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

It always felt like between the ages of 12 - 18 (basically while you were in middle-/highschool) you need to get some sort of "seal of approval" from the other sex as a prove that you are relationship material. If you didn't get that you'll always be seen as somebody to stay away from.

I've heard a lot of times that those young relationships are completely inconsequential, but I think it's those lack of consequences that serve best as a social teaching tool on how to recognize and have an actual meaningful relationship when you're older.

And I feel like this experience is exactly what a lot of men and women are struggling to get. They have trouble finding partners and if they do they are not good partners themselves. Which is sort of a self fulfilling prophecy, you are deemed bad relationship material so you'll become bad relationship material.

I recognized this about myself. At my age the only people left are either young divorcees, people with small children or people that are like me - single for a good reason. There will be expectations towards me that I'm neither aware of nor will probably be able to fulfill. Dating well below my age range is neither something I can pull off nor something that I am comfortable with. So I'm forever stuck in this weird limbo of wanting a relationship but knowing that whoever will be my first partner will probably not have a great time with me.

I think this is also the root of a lot of toxic behavior. People turn to sources of knowledge to at least get some idea about what an relationship is about. But all they find is the Cosmopolitans and the Andrew Tate's who prey upon peoples' loneliness and desperation for profit. I understand that nobody wants to be a teacher, I understand that nobody wants to throw away years of their life so that the next person will maybe have a better time with your partner.

Ali Wong had a good joke about this in her special with something along the lines off not wanting a divorce because then she'd have to teach the next guy how to please her. Taylor Tomilison also had one about wanting to call her ex during sex just so he could explain to the next guy how he did it for her. I know those are just jokes, but it think there is a bit of truth in them.

[-] rottingleaf@lemmy.world 2 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

I'm just autistic\BAD and indecisive and had a romantic trauma at school and my environment (mom) is not mentally well at all (right now it's not worse than hoarding and forgetting everything, but it was).

However, with my looks it's somehow enough for me to just be kinda clean and shaved and in a public place for very pleasant young women (and I suppose much kinder than that girl from school) to try to talk to me with possible romantic perspective (which I usually realize after the conversation ends).

Except it just doesn't work, either I don't understand them, or I'm petrified and don't know what to do or say, or I postpone interpreting the conversation to somewhere late, or I'm ashamed of the mess where I live and showing my life to that person if it goes somewhere.

So - sometimes it's just about never having the courage to go forward. Not about other people discarding you.

EDIT: ah, also about BAD - in the mania phase one might slowly build up background dreams about some women one knows, and when trying to make a decision in regards to the woman they are really communicating with, to feel ashamed both before everyone touched by those dreams and before that woman ; I guess some people are fine with that, some even have open relationships, but this is not a common thing.

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[-] pixeltree@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 6 months ago

There's a few factors working together to cause it. There's really two main ones: pressure to have sex and romantic connection, and an inability to be able to make those connections.

There's tons and tons of pressure out there about being in a relationship and having sex. In modern day, a good example is Andrew Tate and the like, directly linking your self worth to having sex. Back when I was a male teenager during the days of rage comics and advice animals, it was memes about the friend zone. The core idea is the same, being alone is something to be ashamed and upset about. Being rejected is something that reflects badly upon you as a person. Young men are constantly being bombarded with messaging about how being a man revolves around sex and romance, and lacking these things makes you less of a man. In addition, so much media portrays sex both as this amazing thing on a pedestal and as something that's not just commonplace but as something that everyone's expected to be doing.

So young men are believing that everyone except them are all in relationships and/or fucking all the time, and believing that them not doing those things makes worth less as a human being.

The other problem is actually making romantic or otherwise meaningful connections. So much more socializing is online these days, and there are a lot fewer women on the internet than men. It's difficult to make organic connections with single women online, as random social media is by far mostly male and more direct closer friend groups tend to be made of single men and people in relationships (this is very arbitrary and circumstancial, it's just what I've noticed). So, your odds of finding a single and compatible friend of a friend of a friend online aren't great, and dating apps are complete trash for pretty much anything other than gay hookups. So, there's not really a way for many young men to find romantic partners. Straight up hookups are easier, especially if your standards aren't too high, but it's an area a lot of young men aren't socially comfortable with because it's not something they've done a lot of, which makes everything much harder.

In the end, if there wasn't so much pressure to be dating and having sex, then the difficulty of doing so in the modern day wouldn't matter so much.

Personally, I've basically only had sex with men, because it's so much more straightforward and the dating pool isn't crazy lopsided. Though that's at an end now too, because I've transitioned too much to be appealing to gay men anymore and haven't transitioned nearly enough to be appealing to straight men or gay women.

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[-] jeffw@lemmy.world 2 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

Toxic gender norms hurt everyone.

I think this is exacerbated by certain people online who want to capitalize on the issue and scapegoat others (see the manosphere and how they talk about feminism) instead of actually addressing the problem

Edit: a little plug for https://lemmy.ca/c/mensliberation

[-] lordnikon@lemmy.world 3 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

Could not agree more feminism is just human rights by another name and human rights is not achieved by anyone till every gender , race , sexual orientation, religion or lack of, ability or disability are equal.

[-] jagged_circle@feddit.nl 2 points 6 months ago

You dont have to agree even. That's just the definition of feminism.

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[-] dragonfucker@lemmy.nz 2 points 6 months ago

Too many cars. No more third place.

[-] jagged_circle@feddit.nl 1 points 6 months ago
[-] Olgratin_Magmatoe@slrpnk.net 2 points 6 months ago

In sociology, the third place refers to the social surroundings that are separate from the two usual social environments of home and the workplace. Examples of third places include churches, cafes, bars, clubs, libraries, gyms, bookstores, hackerspaces, stoops, parks, theaters, among others

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place

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[-] RBWells@lemmy.world 1 points 6 months ago

I do think the loneliness epidemic affects men more than women, and would argue it's sexism harming men. On average, women are more likely to reach out, talk to people and family will check in on them if they are alone. Like, my husband (who is more outgoing than me and better at keeping up with friends) will call his mom or go up to see her, but leaves his dad alone unless he literally asks for something. Because men are taught it's shameful to not be self sufficient, but women are taught to look for help if we need it.

Obviously this is not a straight gender split but on average it still plays out that way.

[-] adespoton@lemmy.ca 1 points 5 months ago

Here’s a theory. I’m sure it has lots of holes in it.

Male loneliness has always been a thing. In cultures where it isn’t/wasn’t, there was a strong family relationship and older men modelling how to relate to others.

To hide from loneliness, men were able to join clubs, hang out at pubs, volunteer, or bury themselves in work.

In fact, those same pastimes are still available today.

What’s changed is that it is now socially OK to talk about loneliness (at least in online forums like this), so more people are aware it’s an issue.

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[-] BmeBenji@lemm.ee 1 points 5 months ago

Traditional masculinity dictates that men don’t share their feelings (with the exception of anger and aggression because that’s not a feeling that’s just being manly). Sadness, despair, loneliness, depression all will be commonly bottled up and left untreated which leads to deep-seated feelings of isolation. The cure has to be a change in social norms, including decoupling the ideas of being socially vulnerable with being feminine.

This is a gross generalization of the issue but it definitely describes my experience with it.

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this post was submitted on 04 Jan 2025
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