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submitted 2 months ago by gregor@gregtech.eu to c/asklemmy@lemmy.world

Afaik this happened with every single instance of a communist country. Communism seems like a pretty good idea on the surface, but then why does it always become autocratic?

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[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 18 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

There's a lot of confusion in these comments regarding Marxist theory, presumably from people who haven't actually engaged with the source material, so I want to clarify something I see repeated frequently in this thread with little pushback. The Marxist theory of the State is not the same as the Anarchist, nor the liberal. Marx defined the State as a tool of class oppression.

The reason I state this is because there's a confused notion that Marxists think there should be

  1. An unaccountable Vanguard
  2. The Vanguard does stuff. At a certain arbitrary point the Vanguard dissolves and society embraces full horizontalism

I'll address these in order. First, the Vanguard is in no-way meant to be unaccountable, nor a small group of elites, but the most politically active, practiced, and experienced among the proletariat elected by the rest of the proletariat. The concept of the "Mass Line" is crucial to Marxist theory, that is, the insepperability of the Vanguard from the masses. If this line is broken, the Vanguard loses legitimacy and ceases to be effective, whether it falls into Tailism or Commandism. These tendencies must be fought daily, and don't simply vanish by decree.

Secondly, the basis for Marxian Communism is the developmental trends of Capitalism. Markets start highly decentralized, but gradually the better Capitalists outcompete and grow, and as they grow they must develop new methods of accounting and planning. Capital concentrates in fewer and fewer hands, yet socialization increases as these conglomerations begin to reach monstrous heights and require incredibly complex planning. The development of such methods and tools is the real, scientific foundation of Public Ownership and Central Planning.

Continuing, once the Proletariat takes control and creates a Proletarian State, the Proletariat, the more experienced among them the Vanguard, gradually wrests from the bourgeoisie their Capital with respect to that industries and sectors that have sufficiently developed. This process continues until all Capital has been folded into the Public Sector, at which point laws meant for restraining the bourgeoisie begin to become superfluous and "die out." The Vanguard doesn't "dissolve" or "cede power," but itself as a concept also dies out, as over time new methods of planning and infrastructure make its role more superfluous. Classes in general are abolished once all property is in the Public Sector, and as such the State no longer exists either, as there isn't a class to oppress.

This is why Marxists say the State "withers away." It isn't about demolishing itself, but that Marx and Engels had a particular vision of what the State even is, and why they said it could not be abolished overnight.

Hope that helped! As a side note, asking this on Lemmy.world, an anti-Marxist instance, is only ever going to get you answers biased in that direction. I suggest asking on other instances as well to get a more complete view.

[-] TheRealKuni@lemmy.world 3 points 2 months ago

Lemmy.world, an anti-Marxist instance

I wouldn’t call Lemmy.world anti-Marxist. I would say there has definitely been some knee-jerk to the heavy-handed moderation of Lemmy.ml, but being opposed to the more extreme methods of Lemmy.ml doesn’t mean opposition to Marxism in concept. It means you’ll get a broader set of responses since criticism won’t get deleted by the mods/admins, but there are still plenty of leftists on Lemmy.world.

Similar to how opposing Stalinism doesn’t mean one opposes Marxism, you know?

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Lemmy.world defederated from the largest explicitly Marxist aligned instances, their thread going over why spells out pretty clearly that opposition to liberalism was the key determining factor in doing so. Lemmy.ml isn't even a Marxist instance, only admin'd and moderated by Marxists, yet is the instance with undeniably the most conflict with Lemmy.world currently among their federated instances. Moreover, many lemmy.world mods have expressed negative opinions towards Marxism directly, here's an example.

Lemmy.world is a liberal instance, is admin'd and moderated largely as such, and has taken deliberate measures against Marxism and Marxists. I believe it's fair to consider Lemmy.world to overall be anti-Marxist. Does that mean no users share Marxist sympathies? No, of course not, but overall the bias is clear. Similarly, by defederating from the larger Marxist-aligned instances, a thread on Lemmy.world is shutting out the viewpoints of most of the Marxists, rather than having a "broad" view, this minimizes the variance in responses.

Just my 2 cents.

[-] SkyezOpen@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago

I'd agree the MLs aren't Marxist. I don't think a Marxist would unironically stan China Russia and north Korea.

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 0 points 2 months ago

On what grounds do you say Marxist-Leninists aren't Marxists? The world over, the vast majority of Marxists fall under the umbrella of Marxism-Leninism.

[-] SkyezOpen@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago

You can't just claim ownership of all communism and claim everyone falls under the ML umbrella, especially when MLs support dictatorial regimes that are antithetical to communism.

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 0 points 2 months ago

I am not "claiming ownership of all Communism," I am accurately stating that Marxism-Leninism is by far the most common form of Marxism, as it is the basis for the vast majority of AES states past and present. It has real, practical foundations and as such has continued popularity internationally. This is less true in the West, where AES states are violently combatted daily.

[-] SkyezOpen@lemmy.world 0 points 2 months ago

I guess there's a disconnect on what Marx actually thought and what they believe then, as op has pointed out. And the whole Russia China north Korea thing.

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 0 points 2 months ago

What is the disconnect? Can you elaborate without gesturing vaguely?

[-] SkyezOpen@lemmy.world 1 points 2 months ago

Why do alleged communists love authoritarians?

[-] AntiOutsideAktion@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 months ago

Similar to how opposing Stalinism doesn’t mean one opposes Marxism, you know?

What do you think 'Stalinism' is, besides "Marxism but bad" as framed by people who are already staunchly anti-marxist?

[-] TheRealKuni@lemmy.world 1 points 2 months ago

What do you think 'Stalinism' is, besides "Marxism but bad" as framed by people who are already staunchly anti-marxist?

I’ve been told by people who hold communist ideals that there’s a difference between Marxism and the brutal totalitarian implementation that was Stalinism in practice. People far more knowledgeable than I am have made this distinction better than I can articulate.

Would you argue there isn’t a distinction?

[-] AntiOutsideAktion@lemmy.ml -1 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Marxism isn't a religion, it's a social and political science. It's not a list of rules about what you're supposed to do, it's a method of understanding social and historical forces. The socialist revolution was supposed to happen in Germany according to Marx. When the conditions of the world change the people who are alive then are the ones who have to interpret and react to them. So Stalin was doing Marxism in the context of the 1930's soviet union.

[-] vin@lemmynsfw.com 1 points 2 months ago

Sounds sensible from an economics perspective but what about violence? How can state wither away when there needs to be control of violence?

[-] Asafum@feddit.nl 1 points 2 months ago

From what I understand the people individually would be responsible for helping each other which is why there's a strong emphasis on an "armed proletariat." An example, I believe from State and Revolution, was that of a common person helping someone who was being mugged. We'd all have a responsibility to help each other.

Not entirely sure on their concept of military protection though. Except for lenin they didn't really live in an age of crazy military capabilities so it was always man vs man not man vs b52 bombers.

this post was submitted on 03 Dec 2024
195 points (89.5% liked)

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