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Let us never forget the most oppressed group of all, the Centrists
(media.kbin.earth)
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this post was submitted on 22 Dec 2024
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Lefty Memes
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This is false. Only Israel does not want a two state solution. Even Hamas accepted it in 2017.
This is what people mean with enlightened centrism. There are no two sides preventing peace. There is only Israel preventing peace.
The 2017 Hamas charter is openly available on the Internet, and it says it still doesn't recognise Israel as a state and strive for "complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea." This is not really a two-state solution. Two states recognise each other's right to exist if this is indeed a two state solution.
Of course Hamas is not stupid like the PA. They will not recognize Israel unless Israel agrees to a two state solution.
Your arguments are the most generic Hasbara so I am not assuming you are speaking in good faith.
Hamas stated "from the river to the sea" in that charter you yourself mentioned. That could not be any more ambiguous.
Yes of course they have the right to regain all their stolen land unless Israel wants to accept a deal. What is your point exactly?
Read this before typing your next comment
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/5/2/hamas-accepts-palestinian-state-with-1967-borders
They've pretty explicitly been aiming for a Palestinian state in the territories occupied since 1967. And not just recently, proposals for a permanent ceasefire (which sets the first steps towards recognition and normalization of relations) with Israel under these conditions go back to 1999. Conveniently, both Israel and the US didn't find it necessary to respond.
Hamas still doesn't recognise Israel, do they?
Does Israel recognize West Bank as Palestine?
From the article you linked:
Exactly the point. Both sides need to recognise each other. This isn't a sports competition. It doesn't require a PhD to figure that one out.
The PA recognizes Israel. What did that give them?
OK you don't even know what the PA is. Consider not having any opinions.
So do you support Hamas taking foreign hostages who have no dog in the race? What is your opinion on October 7 attack?
No answer quick change the subject. Zionists only response.
If by PA you mean Palestinian Authority, while they seem to have been spineless, how is Hamas taking foreign civilian hostages with no dog in the race promote Palestinian cause? What is your opinion on October 7 attack?
Change the subject to October 7 quick. You got caught lying so you gotta pivot.
You claimed Hamas support two state solution, but then posted a link that directly contradict what you said (why do people post links they don't read and turns out it contradict what they say?) Now you redirect the conversation asking what two state solution had done to PA. While PA had been spineless, they did not kill civilians. Now, it sounds like you are misdirecting by trying to paint Hamas as pro-two state solution, but contradicted what you just said by posting a link that contradicted what you claim. Hamas is clearly anti-Israel and against two state solution, and it seems to me that you are too. Then now, does that mean you support October 7 attack?
No read the link
You also did not answer my question: do you support the October 7 attack? Your silence on the question speaks loud.
Do not change the subject.
Are you a terrorist?
Answer the question. What did the PA gain by recognizing Israel?
I answered the question already. While PA have been spineless, they did not kill civilians. But you and your ilk then seem to wilfully ignore what Hamas did to civilians. Now answer me, do you and the other guy support Hamas' October 7 attack? Have other independence movements in other places killed civilians? By supporting Hamas, do you and the other guy don't support two state solution in essence and do not recognise Israel's right to exist?
The PA have not made any progress towards Palestinian statehood. If anything, they've been complicit in the slow Palestinian genocide.
Is that a serious question? I'd rather ask you to name a major independence movement that didn't. War is a bloody affair. Here's the US revolutionaries massacring pacifists, for example..
So did Israel, by the way. To prevent prisoners being taken, Israel killed a non-insignificant number of their own people, soldiers and civilian.
I do not condone the actions of October 7. But I'm not deluding myself into thinking there was another way. How would you tell the Palestinians to struggle for their freedom from occupation and violence? Just in 2018/19, during the Great March of Return, thousands peacefully marched in protest, reminiscent of the civil rights movement or Ghandi's protests, to demand the displaced Palestinians be allowed to return. They were gunned down in the hundreds.
Are you asking Palestinians to just lay down and die?
If you want a more nuanced take than I can provide, please watch this video by an Israeli, living close to the Gaza strip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pt_1k7nSv1M
The Irish war of independence did not purposefully kill civilians. They only targeted British military personnel, and the British retaliate by killing Irish civilians, which proved to be to Ireland's PR advantage for international support for independence (you might mention the IRA in the 1960s to 90s, but that's a different story right after the establishment of the independent southern part of Ireland, in which the IRA activities had been condemned by the Irish government all throughout). And you mentioned Ghandi's peace movement for Indian independence, and yet somehow have a doublethink that it wasn't a major enough.
How about target military personnel only, and not kidnapping civilian hostages, especially foreign nationals with no dog in the race? It's not that hard to grasp. How is this going to help Palestinian cause? If the Irish freedom fighters killed civilians, that certainly would not have helped their cause for independence.
I think we can track down several times two state option was on the table, starting as early as 68
Very cool and false. But now everyone accepts it except Israel.
What is the benefit from lying? I don't get it. This is all basic info.
It was also on the table at Camp David.
How does that prove they're lying about Israel currently not supporting it?
Right now they're wanting to just take the land after eliminating the people who lived there
Because I said it was on the table several times in the past. And they wrote:
???
Yes because they've (Israel) always negotiated in good faith. Even the camp David accords was a 2 state solution in name only
Well, there you have it. The most unproductive statements as usual. If you don't know the specifics, why comment? Why not discuss the actual policies or the historical details? Why live in the realm of memes and buzzwords? Oh wait... I know why
You really want to discuss the specifics and history of just the versions that make Israel look good?
Why, do the details make Israel look good? Is there a reason to shy away from having a meaningful discussion or is it better to hide behind memes and catchphrases
They don't. And you're the one calling everything buzzwords, memes and catchphrases now.
Whats amazing is wanting to go into the history when that makes Israel look even worse. But you do you
Finally going through your comment history I see you're nothing but a constrain. There's nothing productive from further discussion. Have a great holiday
Par for the course. Searching for specifics or facts of a matter is not being a contrarian. It's called doing due diligence without letting bias cloud your view. We all have narratives we wish to paint. But unfortunately reality is more complicated than yapping online about how Nazzi or not Israel is. That's the difference between online virtue signaling and someone who is interested in pursuing the truth.
Notice none of that is an argument or denial of how shit Israel has been it's entire history.
Even bringing up nazis.
3/10 attempt
Notice how you can only engage at a superficial level with the topic? My money is you can't even locate Israel on a map at this point. But thanks for having an opinion on the subject. I'm not surprised as this has been the most you can get talking anything related to geopolitics on this platform.
And now insults. 1/10.
Have an argument.
It's impressive how much you type to say jack shit and make whatever you are arguing for worse.
It's impressive how much of an opinion on a topic people can have despite not knowing jack shit. But for some reason the onus is always on the rest of us to hold your hand. And if we get into the specifics of something suddenly we're 'contrarian'.
Israel is committing genocide for sure but don't kid yourself in the narrative that hamas is some noble liberation army. It's clear you're not equipped to talk about any of this.
At what point have I expressed anything that puts hamas in a good light?
Again still just insulting.
Ok now explain why Israel does not accept the deal since Hamas does accept it.
I do not have to read any history to disprove your lies. I can open the news right now.
You are correct. Israel, in the present does not accept the two state solution. Hence why I was talking about the past.
Why was it rejected by PLO when it was on the table?.
Show me where Hamas is open to a two state solution.
What is the meaning of "from the river to the sea"
You are trying to change the topic so hard.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/5/2/hamas-accepts-palestinian-state-with-1967-borders
Why was it turned down, Geneva? Care to elaborate?
Because Israel is a Nazi esque apartheid.
Wow. What an insightful response. I stand by what I said earlier: You guys have no idea what you're talking about.