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Italy admits hacking activists with Israeli spyware Paragon
(www.haaretz.com)
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this post was submitted on 05 Jun 2025
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Privacy
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Fuck all those spying countries. But yea still I believe in the west you get in trouble for acting, not just speaking
This is a cool way to protect a belief, narrowing the scope so that the refuting data do not apply anymore. Perhaps I can write a fucking essay about it, but do you have data to support this narrowing move? There is like a ton of data that the West has been invasively spying of possible threats to the status quo (from Cointelpro to undercover UK cops like recently), not just people "acting on it". Furthermore, actions can fall under protected free speech as well, like putting up a poster, demonstrating, and protesting. So your proposal is inherently undemocratic if you roll back freedom to only protect oral expression, quite similar to a "Don't ask don't tell" attitude towards gay people. What you just said is simply counter-factual. Blanket surveillance is a staple of Western societies in the 21st century, and it blows my mind that there are still people oblivious to what is more or less spelled out clearly in the Patriot Act and all laws modeled after it across the globe.
well said, i wish eurolibs would get this through their head, but i'm wishing for too much
Sure, any censorship, spying and oppression is bad. I’m just saying one goes harder than the other, but I’m not denying that it sucks and that it clearly exists. I’m well aware of the patriot act and that speaking can endanger you. I just have this feeling like you get persecuted for speaking against the government in countries like China, whereas you need to be a strong figure to have the same fate in other countries. Anyways, it sucks for all countries that have this.
I have no data and this is just a feeling.
Democracy and freedom of speech, freedom to protest, freedom in general is in danger
Tell that to the students that were expelled from their universities and had their degrees revoked or the public employees that were for fired for speaking out against the American government's support for the Gazan genocide.
Not to mention the civil servants that were fired/fined for advocating for LGBTQ rights in the decades past.
Laura Poitras, Jake Applebaum, Snowden, Assange, Manning, too many others I can't recall, atm, for example.
USA sucks as well. As far as I’m concerned, it is not a democratic country that supports freedom of speech and I’ll never go there.
USA is a bit similar to china on this subject
it's not just the usa; similar actions have happened in the uk and france regarding the genocide and they've also punished people for advocating for lgbtq rights in the past.
that feeling that you have regarding repression from countries like china is only a feeling; not reality.
Even though we have many instances where this happened? And people dissapeared in Hong Kong? Come on, you must be joking.
i literally just pointed out many instances of the same thing happening outside of china; my point is that it happens everywhere and your feeling that it only happens is china is not reality.
Your comment only implied that it did not happen in China.
I still feel like it’s worse there. It happens everywhere sure, but not as much. Fuck their shitty firewall and fuck surveillance.
I’ll just stop here because we’re getting nowhere. You’re saying it happens everywhere, I agree, but feel like it happens more in China for example.
again, feelings are not facts
Those feelings are based on facts.
The great firewall, Hong Kong, censorship against other regimes and countries, Taiwan, social credit… fucking WeChat!?
You've already admitted that your feelings are not based on data or facts. And the fact you still think social credit is real or that "Taiwan" just as a word is condemnation of China certainly confirms that.
Social credit is real in some areas of China
I’ll just stop because that’s cringe. I’ve lost enough time already
Do you base that on "feeling it to be true" as well?
This is a description of what being propagandised feels like; you have this feeling, but you can't put your finger on why.
Oh I know why, I just don’t have the data to confirm this and frankly, I don’t want to. I’ve heard enough to confirm this general feeling. People that have no interest in lying about this, getting sent in jail for minor things, or just seeing what the governments of these countries are saying, lying in plain sight.
What you are describing is called "confirmation bias"
We can learn and take away a lot from this vibes-based, "democracy" virtue-signaling analysis, but not about the topic at hand.
This is still a cool way to downplay the West's imperial staple of suppressing activism, engages in revisionism and amplifies everything that helps liberalism, all while accusing everyone outside the imperial core of doing so (or doing worse) as well, the statement along the lines of "does worse" doesn't mean anything when you recognize that it's a Western idea fully embraced and embroidered by the West that is insurpassable/incomparable to any other form of censorship.
Freedom of speech is a meaningless concept, especially so for anyone that's not white, when you can't actually criticize EU/US/KKKommonwealth countries within these countries meaningfully without fear of losing your job, your house, your visa (this is exacerbated for foreigners, often not talked about) or your life.
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/tufts-university-student-detained-pro-palestine-views-transferred-louisiana
https://www.commondreams.org/news/ice-warrant-mahmoud-khalil
Your "freedom" to "speech" and "democracy" are constrained within a clearly drawn boundary, the boundary of which is drawn by the ruling class.
Any other country outside the West engaging in censorship is either a) a dog of the West or b) protecting itself from fully succumbing into being a dog of the West.
Notice how a Westerner does not risk anything by truly believing in and expressing things like "china censorship bad arabs/muslims are dirty terrorist scum and need to be wiped off the map these russian orcs need to be wiped off the planet", but a non-Westerner risks absolutely everything by even slightly hinting at a criticism towards Western imperialism/wanting better conditions at the cost of the ruling class, perhaps even in their own damn fucking country, this is where point a) comes in to play.
When it comes to China, they fall squarely in b):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAEwoYIYgJA
Once you understand the asymmetry, it becomes a lot clearer why the "both sides" argument is just a feeble attempt at minimizing Western imperialism.
You're taking the USA as an example, and we all know the current situation is really fucking bad and not comparable to other western countries.
Sure, it is, but my point is that it's less restricted.
That's just a massive lie. It doesn't work this way, unless maybe you're in a far-right wing country like the USA rn. I'm in France and we have a lot of far-left people, communists and stuff, none of them are in jail. Saying such things as "bad arabs/muslims are dirty terrorist scum and need to be wiped off the map these russian orcs need to be wiped off the planet" would clearly get you in trouble, especially the "bad arabs/muslims are dirty terrorist scum" because it can't be argued that you were only talking about soldiers etc...
Yea sure, it's only "you're with, or against us". No in-between. haha
I'll just stop here because there's no point in this discussion and I feel like I'm just talking to a tankie, member of lemmygrad and hexbear, that hopped on its alt account.
This seems to be your go to justification for a lot
I prefer admitting it than lying like you do
I haven't lied anywhere.
So? How is it not comparable to other Western countries? The original post already fucking exemplifies why censorship is a staple of the West, not just the US. Swear to god libs like you don't actually have an argument to make and resort to moving goalposts to make up for it:
https://www.euronews.com/next/2021/09/07/protonmail-criticised-for-passing-arrested-french-climate-activist-s-ip-address-to-police
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/french-mayor-bans-palestine-flag-protests-after-psg-victory-incidents
etc. etc.
And that point is pointless because "less" restrictions only apply to small groups of people.
https://www.commondreams.org/news/richard-medhurst
https://electronicintifada.net/content/switzerland-deports-eis-ali-abunimah/50337
https://www.newarab.com/news/pro-palestine-supporters-losing-jobs-over-gaza-solidarity
https://peoplesdispatch.org/2025/05/14/legal-group-reveals-extent-of-anti-palestinian-repression-across-germany/
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/tufts-university-student-detained-pro-palestine-views-transferred-louisiana
https://www.commondreams.org/news/ice-warrant-mahmoud-khalil
[citations needed]. I assure you that the most "trouble" libs faced was a slap on the wrist.
🤣 thanks for exposing yourself as nothing but a vibes-based liberal. Hasn't even produced a single shred of evidence either.
While it is true that they are not convicted, all 4 of them are prime suspects in the destruction of university property and in threatening university staff with weapons, which is legally enough of a reason to throw even eu citizens out.
What are you talking about? Being a suspect of something is, by definition, not legally enough of a reason.
Under german law it is enough of a reason to get deported when the german immigratsoffice things that you are a threat to public safety. They dont need legal proof. having a lawsuit against you of a serious crime is enough for that. Eu law says that you need more reason to be deported, but that is eu law not german law.
Thats why the american gets deported and doesnt file a lawsuit, while the 3 europeans did (and most likly can stay in germany till their lawsuit for destroying university property of at least 100k, attack with hatches, bats and heavy equippment, defamation and usage of unconstitutianal symbols and parols comes to a conclusion)
Lol, what even is due process.
I hope you're not trying to say that's acceptable.
Well most countries handle it this way. You get your visa revoked and thats it. Pretty normal stuff and rarely is a judge involved. In the usa they dont even need to revoke a visa to throw you into guantanamo it seems. Non citizens normally dont have a right to stay in a country. It is a priviledge not a right.
I am not sure how i feel about needing a lot of evidence to rewoke visas.
In this case 3 ppl are eu citizens and the eu "freizügigkeit" needs more evidence than just allegations. However when a few neo nazi hooligans from ireland would storm into a university i would like them to be deported, especially if they dont even say the allegations are wrong. So i have to admit i am indifferent in this case.
All you seem to be doing is proving the original point.
They are not you are lying.
I am not here is an article for you so you can read up on it https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article255845278/Wegen-Stuermung-von-Uni-Gebaeude-Erstmals-Exempel-statuiert-Berlin-plant-Ausweisung-auslaendischer-Israel-Hasser.html
Quote it.
Being deported sucks, but it’s nowhere as bad as going to prison heh, but there sure is an increase of those shitty repressions all over the world currently
So long, goal posts