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Fundraising text I got today. “Cuomo may have killed thousands, but Mamdani’s even worse!”
(hexbear.net)
The tacit understanding here being that the funding and feelings of the police is more valuable than the lives of senior citizens.
The democrats are Mensheviks? Are you serious?
Yeah let’s ally with the blue Nazis because we don’t have any soviets. Awesome plan.
American leftists are so reactionary that they somehow think it's easier to force an old established institution dedicated to absorbing revolutionary energy into becoming revolutionary, than actually creating the revolutionary party.
It also reveals how little regard they have for the people that suffered & die or will suffer & die for their little stunt with blue maga.
Agree with all of this and we’d be in much better shape if the Dems were 1% as good as the Mensheviks
Agreed. People kinda forgot that Kautsky, despite his disastrous influence on western socialism, himself still wanted actually communism in the end and not idk hiring freeze on hiring pigs or just defensive weapons to the genocidal state. Modern day DSA would have never demanded an 8-hour workday or, they would have advocated for being "good" not "perfect" and asked for a 11.5-hour workday which only applies for those employed for 10+ years.
the average person in NYC probably does not know who Kautsky is but does know what a free bus and daycare is
Not remotely my point but whatever.
I was snarky about it but what I really mean is that all this fantasizing about having the Mensheviks around and how puny pissbaby DSA would have been in the 1800s does nothing for the people of New York like having a free bus and daycare would, and the free bus and daycare guy is the frontrunner, so I don't understand the emphatic opposition to the free bus and daycare guy. Like, drop your kids at the free daycare and take the free bus to protest his ass when he steps out of line. At the absolute bare minimum, people in New York are more aware that they have the right to demand a free bus and daycare from their government. That's a good thing.
I'm sure you've heard this line of thinking a million times but still
The issue I was speaking to is that he will drop even the meagre crumbs he is promising for the sake of a nebulous future win, of making socialism more "acceptable" as streamers like hassan postulate. And it only promotes further defeatism, apathy and lessening of class struggle. Instead of opening the populace for further and grander demands, he makes their world smaller, makes them think only modesty and surrender are achievable.
Its not about being against "free daycare" and the contrapointian line of thinking of leftists as "only wanting to critique power and not wield it" - this criticism is something the DSA refuses to engage in, and why they do not grow but stagnate into complicity.
I’m in a chapter of the org and we are constantly having this discussion internally. People within the chapter are skeptical of electoralism. What’s your feeling on how they should utilize members time and funds? I’m not on a steering committee or anything but they listen to every member.
Break with the democrats. Create a stable financial backing system which could support workers on strike for example, create a safehouse net and secure methods to go undercover, infiltrate labour unions, acquire guns and train people, make connections with other like-minded groups, if there are local issues - ensure active change by your chapter. If possible create an anonymous and untraceable closed system of communication. And focus heavily on logistics workers and infrastructural nodes.
Of course part of my recommendations are likely to get you all on a list, especially these days. Regardless in the end if you want to force the dems hand or more radical measures, the path to that power is the same.
In the most polite way I can put it right now: this is magical thinking. It would make a great movie or video game, but it is simply not something any serious organizer would try to do. It doesn't even make from the perspective of anyone who has had to work with others to build a house or piece of software or anything more complex than a college group research project. In no way is this more realistic than the idea that Mamdani is going to do communism in NYC (which nobody has ever claimed in the history of hexbear.net).
How are concrete goals "magically thinking" but vague statements about "pushing left" and "opening the door for more socialist rhetoric" are not? These are all things that need to be DONE, I didnt say they are easy or like seriously feasible in a short amount of time- but guess what these are major projects that should have been in the works for the american left since at least 2016.
Revolutionary action is not a simple affair, its not poetry, pottery or a leisurely walk in the park. It is only demanded of the revolutionary to move mountains themselves.
Those aren't concrete goals though. They don't even make sense. Where are you getting the money to fund thousands of people during a general strike that could last months? How are you collecting and holding the money? Do you realize what goes into creating an independent, secure banking system? Do you even know for sure that it's completely necessary or does it just sound cool? The others are just as whimsical. You don't even know they need to be done because you're not in the middle of building an actual revolution. You will learn what needs to happen as you go. It's an inductive process. What seemed needed at the start will likely not be what was needed by the end.
Nobody said it's poetry. But it is a science and you have to do the science part which is boring and not some Mr Robot Metal Gear Andor plot. And it is actually about feasibility in the short term. That's the criticism of the liberal blue-Nazi electoralists. The criticism is that their plan won't work in the short term (ie the few years of someone holding office). You can't suddenly disregard feasibility on a human time frame because it's your special ideas that 'need to be done.'
I didnt say that lol. I said a COMMUNICATIONS system, you know like not using whatsapp or facebook to plan your operations.
Yes because menial accounting work for an organization/party is the "mr robot metal gear plot". Please listen to yourself. You are strawmening into a new dimension. This conversation is over, clearly with people such as you on the american left, nothing will ever change.
You said it right there. You need to collect money for striking workers. Using what? Cashapp? Venmo? Those can be shut down. Where are you storing the money that will support hundreds if not thousands of people for weeks or months if not a bank?
Here is the rest of your plan:
So just buy or "acquire" real estate that can be used to hide people from, presumably, LE. How is that going to work? How are you buying it or holding it? Are you just using people's houses? Wouldn't that be a major security problem?
Where are you getting the guns without being immediately flagged? Where are you training all these people that isn't obvious?
Jeopardize all the above based on like-mindedness
Create a private communications network that's anonymous and untraceable! Of course. Just do another internet, but leftist.
Of course you want to do all this, you're 12. Very concrete plans that are completely vital to doing a revolution that you learned from your many years of doing revolution.
A "financial backing system" (a strike fund, in this context) is not the same as a "banking system" and, for all your lecturing here, I don't understand how even a normie could conflate the two.
What are you even talking about? Unions having strike funds is an extremely normal thing, and strikes are legal under very achievable conditions, so just assuming that the entire infrastructure of society is a trap is absurd.
Still doesn't make sense. If they're common and normal then the left shouldn't have been working on them since 2016. If we're talking about the DSA specifically, they have one. It doesn't even make since as a suggestion there either. So the person you're defending either isn't talking about a strike fund, or they are and they don't know they're common or that the DSA already has one. Either way, it's not my problem they're wrong.
For as long as capitalism exists, the left should be working on creating or maintaining strike funds.
Not every DSA branch has a functional strike fund, which again should be obvious, and I don't think counting on national to do everything is a good strategy. I think our friend is talking about strike funds, does know that they are common, and does know, at least more or less, about their status in the DSA, and none of the advice you and I are talking about is contrary to that.
They probably could have used clearer language, though.
"working class revolutionary organization would be good? Oh nonsense sweaty thats not realistic, let the adults in the room talk, there is no alternative to working within the bourgeois system"
The cope must end. It is a cold hard fact that electoralism and entryism into fascist parties are dead ends in the fight to end capitalist exploitation and genocide. Nobody who calls themselves a socialist or communist should have any delusions about them being so. Its more of an individualist childish video game muh metal gear andor avengers marvel soy slop etc. fantasy to expect that 1 guy can steer some genocidal far right party into being even remotely left wing even at the local level.
If anything the democratic party should be forcibly dissolved and its members face an international tribunal headed by Palestine for committing, aiding, and abetting multiple genocides. Those found guilty should be jailed for life or shot like dogs just like how the west promised to do to the nazis instead of employing them in NATO.
Damn you have portrayed me as the wojak twice. I underestimated the level of maturity here.
Their argument wasn't a smoll bean flawed revolutionary plan it was presented as what all leftists should have been doing for the past 10 years and completely necessary for the success of the revolution. Since you have no actual response you've decided to throw basic baby leftism at me like I'm you 5 years ago. Nobody ever said on this site that Mamdani would single-handedly steer the Democrats left. They said he can fuck with rent control and maybe do some basic social policies while holding a seat for a little while. You simply cannot stop making shit up while calling everyone else debatelords and accusing them of manufacturing strawmen.
Kill the democrats for all I care. Despite what you think, I actually do not like them. I also understand their history and what roles they played in atrocity. I promise, like I swear on my life, that you are not the first person to understand these things. A lot of the trouble you're having right now is just your impotency in the face of atrocity creating the need to lash out online (one of your few means of political expression that won't get you killed or jailed). I understand it's not actually about me because you don't know me, which is why you have to pretend that you've stumbled upon my obvious liberal dedication to Nazis.
Now, eagerly refresh the page for your next chance to battle the libs comrade.
I appreciate everyone who replied. I feel like the DSA isn’t as irredeemably lib as characterized but they have made mistakes for sure and criticism is an important part of the process. I think it would be even better if some of the critics came to meetings and voiced these concerns and ideas. And if there’s orgs that are doing the work they want to see I’d love to know so I can check them out as well. It’s crucial that we get to a place of regularly conducting our political struggle in person with real people.
The cope is unreal. It was literally Q: What should the DSA be doing instead of electoralism? A: incorrect unserious ideas but in the right general direction, no mention of "10 years" and being "completely necessary"
Cope again. No response to what? I'm not the same person who you were arguing with buddy. I don't even agree with their ideas and don't take them seriously because this is some anonymous internet forum. Arguing over strategic form over substance is just pedantry. What I do agree with is the overall undercurrent to break ties with the genocidal democratic party and explore alternative means of building worker power. As you said this is "basic baby leftism" and yet americans are still coping.
Thats good but there are people in this very comment section replying with logical fallacies and copes in response to people stating very obvious basic facts about how both democratic party entryism and electoralism are dead ends for any real change.
Again, not the same person.
There is a difference between saying that they "do not like them" / "understand their history" and internalizing the fact that they are completely irredeemable and directly responsible for genocidal murder and suffering on a mass scale, which therefore means breaking ties with them.
Understand what things? Lets see you type them out instead of being a duplicitous condescending amerishart. Free Palestine.
Condescending nonsense response. You're acting as if poking fun at you for posting like a destiny fan + general criticisms of electoralism/entryism into the fascist genocidal democratic party are some spiteful "lashing out" against you as a person or something. Get a grip.
Kinda disturbing to see someone use what they perceive as anger due to "impotency in the face of *genocide (FTFY)" as part of a supporting argument for an own or something.
Idc about you as a person nor the fact as to whether you personally support nazis, the fact is that ITT you had ample opportunity to engage in a constructive discussion with the person you were arguing with and explicitly express agreement with their overall point that electoralism is a dead end and the democratic party are basically bourgeois nazis who support genocide. Therefore, you could have rightly criticized their plan and discussed with them a better alternative at a general level.
Yet you didn't and just bizarrely focused on pedantically criticizing their specific plan, taking it so seriously as if they meant it was "what all leftists should have been doing for the past 10 years and completely necessary for the success of the revolution", really disproportionate response to some post that was unserious bullshit but done in good faith in the right general direction.
This seems like some cope where you criticize and argue over the form of something because you disagree with the substance and yet can't really find any valid arguments to criticize it because you know the substance is correct.
I mean you're basically posting like a condescending succdem streamer fan ("muh adults in the room", "muh realism") in response to someone giving some uninformed but good faith suggestions for pro-worker actions as alternatives to electoralism, which in the context of the "american left" means siding with the genocidal, white supremacist democratic party.
I hope I'm wrong and we can all be on the same page that the democratic party are responsible for genocide, entryism into them is thus wrong, and bourgeois electoralism is a dead end, so we can talk about solutions that are more in line with reality.
lmao projection and cope you're the one 3 replies into the
Communicating with you people is like chewing sandpaper. The whole point was that it was incorrect and unserious. So you agree with my post. What a tremendous waste of time. Also they did say that about 10 years.
Quote:
2016 is 2 months away from being 10 years ago. They're saying these things need to be done and should have been done for the past 10 years. It's there plain as day. I guess part of our problem is you're not even reading posts, just skimming the first three words of every sentence and replying. You're not even reading the posts you're defending.
I'm not spending all day itemizing posts and arguing with you about the definition of what words mean. You clearly went to the second or third page of the site, dug into 2 layers of replies just to find something to argue about. You just said you agree with my post so there's nothing really left to argue about (with me). Go find someone else.
Thinking is known to be a painful experience for amerisharts.
You're trying to cope and run away from the substance again. I agree that on a surface level, the post is incorrect. However, fact of the matter is that on a more substantive level, it is correct to pursue other types of action as opposed to electoralism and/or entryism into the genocidal imperialist democratic party.
Furthermore, the unserious nature of the post we are both referring to, when combined with the correct general direction it sets, means that it can either be completely ignored or critiqued with respect to better ways of building a strong progressive mass movement in america that can challenge the bourgeois.
After all the more serious general problem is not that there are too many leftists who are pursuing a genuinely more revolutionary line yet doing stupid things. Its that too many "leftists" are succdem copers who have faith in a bourgeois electoral system which props up genocidal parties.
Again, the problem is your disproportionate response to some post that was unserious bullshit but done in good faith in the right general direction.
This seems like some cope where you criticize and argue over the form of something because you disagree with the substance and yet can't really find any valid arguments to criticize it because you know the substance is correct.
I mean you're basically posting like a condescending succdem streamer fan ("muh adults in the room", "muh realism") in response to someone giving some uninformed but good faith suggestions for pro-worker actions as alternatives to electoralism, which in the context of the "american left" means siding with the genocidal, white supremacist democratic party.
Ok reddit. Honestly, so what? If anything they are right that the type of revolutionary working class movement-building as an alternative to electoralism had to be started 10 years ago at the very least. Again, its an uninformed post but they're 100% correct terms of the general direction.
You made a similar mistake in your 1st post and yet nobody cared because that would be annoying and counterproductive.
That is literally what you have been doing with the other person but go on.
It was on the first page you absolute projecting coper. You're the one who started this fucking nonsense argument.
Denounce the democratic party as a genocidal, white supremacist organ of the bourgeois, admit that electoralism and entryism are bullshit, and admit that the person who you started arguing with was incorrect on the surface level but was correct in their adamant insistence on an alternative, more revolutionary, direction.
Oh I get it. I hit some kind of chronically online trip-wire.
Disengage.
The person goes on to inappropriately use the "disengage" rule to first bring up some irrelevant moderation history out of context, despite me not being bigoted and replying to them in a calm manner, and then prevent me from replying to fully dismiss me as some kind of unhinged chronically online reactionary.
Kind of ghoulish and bad faith if you ask me.
Also they are averaging about 13 comments a day using a conservative estimate, while I'm at about 2 a day, rounding up. Another case of projection.
They never said "general strike," they just said "strike"
Serious Marxists of the past were very clear that participating in electoral politics is at least sometimes constructive, but that's not the same as electoralism (a plan predicating on victory through the primary means of winning elections) or entryism (trying to have electoral success within a rightist party to steer it toward socialism somehow). Supporting DSA dems who are already campaigning is whatever, I guess, if they have good policies, but the best thing to do is actually have your own platform that you have full authority over so that you can spread a message of undiluted socialism (rather than play PR games like Mamdani) and force reactionaries to contend with it.
of all the
I've seen recently about the Zohran campaign this is the most reasoned and theoretically rooted take I've seen, thank you for it
Mao said to "move among the people as a fish swims in the sea" so how about asking the members themselves, perhaps also asking people within the local area that the chapter operates in? See what problems come up and see what forms of collective action can help overcome them. Political education would also be great.
Anything but having having things to do with the fascist democratic party or the bourgeois electoral system as a means of achieving pro-worker change. Now that would be a waste of time and money imo
It should not be your only basket or your main one, but it's silly to dogmatically oppose participating in elections (under your own banner) when they can be good vehicles for agitation.
DSA is exploding in membership and political influence so I don't know where you're getting your last idea from.
The former idea, yeah maybe but I see this view as very cynical, like, "he's probably just going to give up on these ideas so I'm going to give up first." I don't agree with that, and I don't see the counter suggestion - "class struggle"? Should the streets run red with the blood of the proletariat, while the bus fare rises? I also don't see how city-operated grocery stores, a political idea I have not heard from any USian political candidate with a lead in the polls in my lifetime, "makes their world smaller".
I just fail to see the real world connection between your prognostications and the actual things a mayor has the power to do that this guy says he is going to do if elected, which currently he is the favorite for, because of the material changes he is running on
If he is a chickenshit he deserves to be castigated, if he is kneecapped by Democrats I think it will only increase their general disdain, if he actually does the shit he says he will with the power he will have then material good will come of it. Personally I'm rooting for the latter.
wait why do you think he's out to change the institution of the democratic party and not simply trying to do some good things as the mayor? one of those things is dumb as hell, the other is perfectly reasonable and there are structural reasons to seek the dem nomination rather than trying to do it as an independent.