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this post was submitted on 12 Dec 2025
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The demons in Frieren really bother me. It's just such a strange choice in this otherwise incredible show to have the villains just be pure evil, cold, calculating, no emotions, mustache twirlers. In a lesser show I probably wouldn't even notice, it's pretty standard shonen stuff, but this was so much better, it just sticks out like a sore thumb.
No you're not the only one.
I wouldn't have minded if they were just purely ontologically evil- "They're from hell, they're antithetical to life" kinda deal like the curses in Jujutsu Kaisen. Make them explicitly supernatural and just roll with it because the story needs an uncomplicated villain- yeah ok, understandable.
It's all the in-universe evo psych nonsense given as "world-building" that gives me the heebie-jeebies, especially in the way in which those justifications knowingly or unknowingly mirror real-life bigotries. Having a sapient fantasy race that cannot change their inherent nature due to biology, just so that the protagonists have a narrative excuse to blast them really doesn't sit right with me at all.
Which is a shame because yeah, otherwise the show is actually pretty good, especially at exploring the breadth of human experience. So to have this weird blind-spot is baffling.
Yeah, exactly! There's no reason to put some weird borderline eugenics level understanding of evolution in there, especially in a show set in a magical fantasy world, they can just be magical monsters and it's fine.
Yeah this is why I couldn't stick with watching it.
Hitler particles are the background radiation of the Western world.
The demons are white people.
So demons are like capitalists?
No, they aren't evil because they choose to be, they're evil because they literally evolved to be evil hunters of humanity. If it was them being raised to be that way I wouldn't have a problem with it, but in a show all about the human experience, having inherently evil villains who cannot ever change their nature just feels very tonally dissonant.
They might be able to, at some point -- but the story has yet to be completed.
Would be a little awkward to have the main character kill like a million demons then reveal they're people
"Frieren is basically Ender Wiggin" is a twist that might actually make me want to watch that show
wow lol this... actually kinda tracks
You know what, you're right. I wanna see this scene reenacted
I agree lol
Most magical beings in Frieren (those that disappear into nothing when slain) kill humans just because, no need to feed on them or to absorb their souls.
If they worked like animals, some generations of selective breeding would make them tolerate humans. I'm sure later, some psycho in a farm would gentrically engineer succubi but that's another point entirely.
For a more "grounded" experience, dungeon meshi tries creating an ecosystem around the fantastical creatures.
Dungeon Meshi is one of my favourite animes, but you're giving an in-universe explanation for a problem I have with the writing of the show. The demons are the way they are because they were written that way, not because of any in-universe lore.
Any in-universe lore is what it is because it was written that way though? I don't quite see your point there.
Anyway, I actually like the way the demons are written, the first thought that popped into my mind when Frieren explained that they are "evolved from creatures who cry help in the dark" (or something along those lines, I don't remember the exact quote) was of creatures from my own country's folklore, creatures who would lure you into the forest at night to drown you in ponds, others that would lure you deep into the mountains and trap you in them forever, stories like that that we grew up with as kids. So I suppose because of my own cultural context I like the idea of exploring how those kinds of beings might evolve?
The thing is usually folklore spirits behave that way because of something. It can be because they have unfinished business or they feed on fear or souls to become stronger. This gives them a pressure to evolve and become better at luring victims but I don't remember an explanation of what makes demons in Frieren kill humans apart from territorial disputes.
In my country's folklore they just do that shit because that's what they're here to do. The only thing you can do to save yourself is to outsmart them, they're not going to change no matter how much of an epic debatelord you are.
And I don't see why that is inherently "problematic", it's like a pack of wolves killing a deer. There's no human idea of "morality" or whatever involved in them doing so, it's just what they do.
I'm not talking about morality, wolves get hungry and kill deer for sustenance. A dragon scorches your village because someone stole some loot from their nest and the dragon followed the smell.
Some creatures of the night kidnap children to eat them for the same reason a pack of wolves eat deer. If the demons are intelligent enough to talk, I'm sure they can be domesticated like with wolves and dogs.
Just feed them food while breeding the ones that don't try to kill humans on sight. After multiple generations, you can artificially select the ones that tolerate humans around. And after more generations you get some that like humans.
This was done with foxes: [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_silver_fox]. With enough time and resources, demons can also be tamed.
The Thermian Argument is a favorite of people who don't want to confront the fact that a work of fiction they enjoy radiates hazardous levels of Hitler particles
I haven't watched the show, but couldn't the Demons evolve into not killing people and it could be what the story is trying to resolve in the end. I mean they could, it all depends on the author and what he is willing/able to write and share with us. Since the entire story is made up.
I could write a vampire story, for example, where the conclusion is that even though vampires evolved to survive on human blood and need it to survive, they resolve it by just not hunting humans, because the humans are like: "Okay we can just donate some blood to y'all? We know you need it to survive so we'll just give you some." But not all vampires are willing to let go of the hunt and not all humans are okay with their blood being donated to vampires and then it turns into another plot point where you have communist-vampire alliance vs fascist-vampire alliance and that's another story and then let's say the communists win in my story and we have total defeat of fascism, now this is the most annoying one to write because I don't know what would happen under actually existing communism, never been done before. What would be the new adversaries?
And so on.
The problem with vampires is that they are immortal, so in a capitalist society, the vampires and necromancers would eventually own all the property.
Yeah they could even make a like a VR chat sort of thing for people, that they use to pacify humans while syphoning off their blood. Meanwhile they are living in giant empty buildings, doing vampire infighting, to see who is the vampire with the biggest house.
In a few scenes explaining the nature of demons, a direct one to one comparison is made between human concepts of wealth/hierarchy and how demons organize themselves using mana instead of wealth
Unfortunately all of that is ignored by some online leftists who are more interested in the most tortured and delirious interpretation of the setting, to the point where some are convinced the demons are an allusion to marginalized people in the west, despite the fact they're literally coded as genocidal German aristocrats
Literal
vibes
One of the work's most famous narrative arcs is about how the demons' evil is racially inherited and independent of material circumstances, and even their children are dangerous monsters that can only be exterminated. Is it really so surprising that someone would see that and think of Rassenkampf and "The only good Indian is a dead Indian," instead of the political project that reformed Puyi?
There's also this line, which... well, let me put it this way: if I were to read this as an pertaining to any real-world political movement, it definitely wouldn't be the bourgeoisie.
E: If anything, the logic of Frieren reminds me of the logic of "populist" anti-capitalism, which accurately identifies and rails against the evils of capitalism but externalizes them onto an ontologically evil (generally racial, usually Jews) outsider group.
E2: Come to think of it, the genocide victim protagonist being a blonde-haired, blue-eyed young woman with a German-sounding name is eyebrow-raising as well.
I don't say this usually, but shit really ain't that deep bro, despite the whole amoral species thing, the allegory and subtext about the demons is pretty well intact; German aristocrats doing genocide and colonialism, that's their theme, yeah "it's in their blood", sure call that problematic, big whoop
Come back to me when their presentation is orientalized or is harking to racial caricatures from the west, otherwise your argument is standing on sand
Aside from the fact the context of the arc blows your accusation out of the water, Frieren isn't berating Macht for having the audacity to desire coexistence, she's pointing out his idea of "coexistence" seems to be nothing more than treating others around him as "playthings" and "curiosities" that are thrown away at the slightest inconvenience
So a creature with the goofiest German name, dressed like a noble from a Czarist court, treating those he deems lesser than himself with a colonial mindset, I wonder what the subtext could possibly be
Every element of a fictional work is placed with intent. The baby demon subplot invites one to ask what that intent is, and that question invites a certain answer, as evidenced by the fact that a large number of people from across the political spectrum all independently arrived at that answer.
Which gets muddled by the fact that their POV victim is a blonde-haired, blue-eyed woman with a German-sounding name. Who is it that always shouts about such people being victims of genocide by an ontologically evil outside race that superficially appears to share its culture but is only pretending to assimilate so it can destroy them?
The baby demon subplot invites an examination on the theme of "appreances can be deceiving" of mythologies surrounding creatures like changelings or the nature of cuckoo birds
If there's a real world racial allusion being made in that subplot, then you need to actually demonstrate it, instead of just endlessly implying that it's there
Except the fact all the characters are a variation of German runs against the grain of your argument, if the on-screen presentation made real world allusions to different ethinc groups, then the class allegory would be buried under the on-screen struggle between fantasy Germans vs fantasy some-other-ethinc group
It's the fact that separation can't be made that has already soured the series for many online chuds, who ironically (considering your argument) identify with the Demons more then they do with the Mrs. Freiren lmao, who according to you is an "Aryan princess"
Then we take into account the fact that memes like the one above are the most common interpretation among normies who seem pretty happy cracking jokes about how the Demons are "white people" or the millions strong Frieren TikToks where the most popular take is that the Demons are an allegory for capitalism
Funny how nobody (including the racists themselves) can't seem to detect this racism that is apparently oozing off the screen
That was never my argument. I don't make assumptions about the creator's intent. My argument was that people's readings of stuff like the baby demon subplot are going to be informed by the real-world context in which they live. You can tell people all you want that they shouldn't use real-world cultural context to inform their readings of fiction, but you might as well command the tide to stop coming in for all the good it'll do you. I have already talked about the real-world context behind "these things look like you but they think only of destroying your race, even the children, kill them all," so I won't relitigate that.
Then why in [CW: Nazi shit] the linked thread are the chuds posting pics of Frieren with captions like "the reason I look this cute is because I'm white" and editing the comic to replace the KKK member with bigoted caricatures of Jews, black people, and trans people?
EDIT:
Unfun fact: the general consensus among anthropologists is that the changeling myth arose as a way for peasants to excuse killing their disabled and neurodiverse children.
If you base your opinions on what other people hallucinate, then that's just you putting your baggage on a work, if you can't examine the work on its own terms then you're wasting your own time
Have you considered that the chuds are mad about the Frieren memes and are coping in the dumbest ways possible? You did really expect the chuds would react positively to all the "demons are white people" memes everyone from TikTok to the massive Frieren Subreddit are posting? You're tailing the chuds and letting them dictate your opinions on a work of fiction
When I say "real world context" I mean the culture and history that shaped and continues to shape our existence, not what some fascist losers are saying online.
No human being is capable of doing that because creative works don't spring from the ether and neither do we. If you think you can somehow partition your brain to engage with a work completely divorced of everything you've ever known and experienced of the material world, you're fooling yourself.
Why would they get mad about the memes if they didn't like Frieren to begin with?
"Many people interpret this work in a fascist manner" is evidence for the claim "this work lends itself to a fascist interpretation."
Fascists fucking love this "curtains are just blue bro, don't look into it, authors don't actually think about stuff bro, they're just story machines, don't look at the themes bro, don't think about anything and just passively absorb everything" bullshit. Media literacy is important, and it saddens me to see you think like this.
As a professional writer myself, every single theme and idea put into something is put there with intent, unconscious or not. If the show has a literal "nits make lice" scene about a child of the evil enemy it's because the author wanted to make a point about that exact idea, and in the show, it explicitly shows that the only correct and moral choice is to exterminate them all, because they are literally born evil, and are incapable of changing their nature, despite being intelligent and sapient like people and perfectly capable of descision making and personal choice(but they only ever make choices to deceive and destroy people). Can you not see how this is an extremely problematic theme in a show that is supposed to be about human connection?
Frankly I think it's ironic you're accusing me of "Curtians are just blue" type shit when that's precisely what I think you and all the other "Frieren is racist" leftists are doing, obsessing over in-lore aesthetics and tortured interpretations of presentation while completely missing the subtext and allegorical themes of what the Demons are supposed to represent, which sure as shit isn't black people, Jews or whatever you all seem to be implying
The allegory of uncaring aristocrats bound by blood to commit genocide and colonialism, may contain problematic elements, but it doesn't prove your accusation that the series is attempting to normalize racism
Do you know actually know what I'm talking about? Did you actually read what I wrote or are you just looking to get mad because I'm criticising a show you like? If you want to accuse me of overanalysing, fine, but don't also claim I'm refusing to analyse at the same time, that's just incoherent.
I'm not saying you can't like the show, I'm saying it has some problematic elements that actively harm the storytelling. And those some problematic elements have attracted a lot of fascists to the show's fanbase, because the way the demons are talked about in the show is the exact same way they want people to think about minorities. Is the show itself being racist? No, the demons aren't a direct stand in for any real world group, but the way they are talked about in the show is exactly how hate groups talk about minorities.
The show literally has a scene that shows us what happens when a demon child is raised by people: The demon will just kill them, because it is their nature to destroy people. They look like humans, but only to fool people into letting their guard down. Not because of some magical mumbo jumbo, but because they literally evolved to be destructive monsters whose only goal is to wipe out humanity. Can you not see how this is literally how actual real world groups like nazis talk about their enemies? Can you not see why fascists would love a show that says "some creatures look human, but aren't really, they just evolved to look human in order to trick people. Our only solution is to exterminate them all, it's us or them."
They aren't aristocrats, they aren't in charge of this society, they are apart from it and seeking to destroy it from the outside. If they were in charge and actively trying to destroy or control everyone below them, then yeah, they'd be a pretty clear stand in for a parasitic aristocracy, but the show doesn't treat them like that, it treats them like vermin. It doesn't treat them as a stand in for real world oppression, they're just evil because they are born that way.
You look at their fancy clothes and German names (in a setting where everyone dresses like that and has German names) and that's where your analysis ends? Can you not see how the exact same rhetoric used by the characters in the show about the villains is literally the exact same rhetoric real world hate groups use to justify their violence?
I suppose Ukraine can't be full of Nazis, because they have a Jewish president, and the US can't be racist because they elected Obama, right? After all, we should only ever look at surface level stuff, and if they are literally wearing aristocratic clothing, that means they must be aristocrats and represent them and only them and nothing else, and the fascist part of this show's fanbase just loves the show for no reason, and it totally isn't a useful tool for them to normalise toxic ideas about real people, even if that wasn't the original intent.
⁹You can't overanalyis something if you refuse to analysis the content on screen in the first place, the fact the Demons are an outside force doesn't change the subtext and presentation that they are a conquering force with an aristocratic mindset, happy to commit genocide on a whim
That subtext doesn't scream "vermin" who are misunderstood and just trying to live, it screams colonialism
Maybe you just didn't read the Manga that outlined the full extent of what the demons had been getting up to, but even if you only watched the anime the obvious conclusion is the Demons are a conquering superpower and force of nature, not an allegory for different ethinc groups who need to be trampled underfoot
Also if you judge a work of fiction by whether fascists like it, then I'm sorry you're not gonna be allowed to like anything
Fascists are parasites who can latch on to Star Trek for fuck sake and you want to sit there and point to them as if that makes your argument? I don't care about fascists and their incoherent interpretations of a slightly problematic work that contains an obvious class allegory
I don't think this is a productive discussion for either of us. Disengage.
The "blue curtains" reading would be "the demons don't represent anything, it's just a story." We're not doing that. We're describing how certain elements in the story facilitate a symbolic interpretation that differs from yours.
Death of the author, what they're "supposed" to represent is irrelevant, we're judging the work by what is present within it and the cultural and historical context within which it exists.
I think I've half-jokingly said something like this in an earlier Frieren thread, but I'll say it again, and 100% seriously this time:
Some people on here seem to actively want any manga or anime ever made to have fascist undertones, just so they can justify their belief that all Japanese people are born fascist. Like it's genetic or some shit. And the fact that this is very clearly a form of racism in itself completely escapes them.
This whole thing is extremely USA coded, let me just remind you that there is an entire world outside your borders.
Or my family lived under Japanese occupation and we had people die in the Bataan Death March, so I'm cautious whenever Japanese media has racist undertones. There hasn't been an honest effort on Japan's part to even acknowledge what they did while their government is trying to recreate the same genocidal projects. It's very similar to how Black or Native American people have problems with settler-colonialist themes featured in westerns and post-apocalyptic media. Capitalist media is going to have capitalist brainworms unless it is explicitly anticapitalist. This doesn't mean you can't enjoy something. It's pointing out the problems as they exist.
But sure. I'm the real racist for pointing out racism in your cartoon slop. Fuck off with this crakkker shit.
Instead of engaging with the discussion about how a fantasy race that is ontologically evil is problematic (something that exists outside of the fantasy genre within Japan) you instead made up the idea that people on hexbear want to use animanga as a way to essentailize Japanese people as fascists? Even though the entire discission is about how essentialization is harmful?
"Reading animanga more deeply than I'm personally comfortable with is actually the real racism"
Yes, and tragically you have failed to reckon with that here.
I hope after reading @Belly_Beanis@hexbear.net 's response you've had a chance to reflect upon that. The only constructive critique I have to add is that "do not assume everyone on Hexbear is a white USAn" was an oft-requested suggestion from the PoC bloc on this site (inasmuch as we are a bloc) during the recent Code of Conduct struggle sessions.
Buddy if you think this is about me hating Japan, how do you reconcile that with me complaining about racial alignments in Dungeons and Dragons a week ago. I like Dungeons and Dragons but I freely admit that some aspects of it unfortunately radiate Hitler particles.
In any case "You think Japanese people are born fascist" is a gross strawman of the hopefully uncontroversial statement that Japan is a US puppet regime, and being a satellite of the Fourth Reich is liable to influence its culture in not-so-good directions
There were already a lot of not-so-good cultural currents in Japan long before the US got anywhere near it too, which it also isn't immune from criticism for even if sometimes people use it as an excuse to be racist. I think that, ironically, the idea that anyone who might take issue with racism in Japanese media is a racist Amerikkkan (as the user you're replying to implied) is actually very USA coded one. There are around 2 billion people who have very recent (living) social and cultural memory of being victims of Japanese genocides and atrocities, which the Japanese state (and vast majority of Japanese society) not only doesn't even pretend to apologize for but generally doesn't even acknowledge the existence of (except to constantly praises those directly responsible and attempt to rearm to be able to do it again). Almost none of these 2 billion people are American citizens.
I never got the point of friendren. I was expecting something like " to your eternity" where the world changed around her. supporting characters las for 4 episodes tops.
Instead we got some elf who recruits s few kids into her death squad.
The series is about the people around her changing Frieren herself and making her value the smaller things in life more, and it uses loss and melancholy as powerful devices to do so, with her going on this journey of (self)discovery because because she realised that humans are short lived and yet she never tried to learn more about her friends that she defeated the big bad evil guy with who she spent a decade or so with.
It's different to To Your Eternity which is also partially about its nigh immortal protagonist's - Inno's - growth as a person, but while frieren is growing from someone who just goes through the motions to someone who values human experiences, Inno is a blank slate learning to adult.