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Comic Strips
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I never understood the most basic, fundamental point of Christianity - how does Jesus getting crucified forgive my sins? Is it some sort of ancient Christian bar bet?
"Oh, you think it's so easy? You get crucified, and if you really do it, I'll forgive everybody's sins."
"That's bullshit. You won't do that."
"I'll go you one better - I'll forgive their sins forever.
All right, you got a bet!"
If I committed a murder, that murder doesn't just go away just because some random, third party person died somewhere, 2000 years ago. My victim is still dead, the family is still sad, and I'm still a murderer.
The next time I'm in front of a judge, can I claim my crimes are already absolved because a guy died long ago? Of course not, I'm going to jail. The government doesn't buy that story because it makes no sense, and I'm not buying it either.
Edit: Numerous insightful replies, I'm impressed. Thanks, gang!
It's based on the old idea of offering sacrifices to atone for sins. Do bad thing, sacrifice a dove or whatever to God to make up for it.
The idea is that God decided to do away with the sacrifice system using said system, by sending and then accepting a sacrifice great and pure enough to wipe the slate clean forevermore - his own self/son.
I've heard that it hits people from cultures where they do still sacrifice for every sin particularly hard - we might not have the frame of reference to really get this fully anymore.
There's one thing that still bugs me about this narrative. Jesus wasn't a sacrifice. He wasn't killed as an offering to God for the sins of humanity. He was killed because he was giving the peasants ideas that the ruling class didn't like. Unless God sending him to Earth in the first place was the sacrifice, by the logic that God knew how it would turn out. But then God is the one offering the sacrifice... to God.
Excellent perspective.
But what's the sacrifice either? Jesus doesn't even die for good. Is a few hours of suffering a grand sacrifice worth all humanity's sins?
Off course the judge of that is God who is the definitive self-absorbed jackass so maybe he does value his own temporary inconvenience that high.
God basically ripped himself in two as Jesus/the Son was completely cut off from the Father.
Speaking as someone literally brought up in a cult like environment, it's just one of the many nonsense word-salad doctrines that people live by when those people were never able to separate their feelings from their world. IE: there is a segment of the population who do not have a distinction between an outside world, separate from their feelings about it.
This is a reflection of how the brain works at a most basic level. It's not a logic tool for reasoning out problems, not by default at least. It's default instruction state is to assemble experiences and associations to write a story to explain how you feel, and it doesn't actually have objective understanding about the world, so those stories do not need to make sense.
When you really, truly internalize and digest this fact, you will understand so much about yourself and others. You can overcome some depressive episodes and know how to make people like you, how to manage addiction and unhealthy behavior and how to avoid being manipulated by others, and so much more. It's vastly important we understand this about our brains.
You have to actually train your brain to actually analyze and understand the world around you in a way that shows you how you and the world relate to each other. Most people don't do this work, but brains are good enough at taking advantage of your environment that they can still get through life... but it leaves a lot of room for huge errors in reasoning. In fact, it's not conscious reasoning at all, it's story-building followed by total acceptance of this story without question because you think it's you reasoning, but it's just how your brain weaves narratives in your mind.
So for the people who never learned this distinction, they just feel a thing, and then either let their brains assemble a story to explain it, or they latch onto someone else's supplied story. This is how people are manipulated on mass scales.
"Jesus died for your sins" makes no logical sense, but it's not meant to, it's meant to make you feel like something is being done about the thing you worry most about, if you're going to see your loved ones again in heaven. That's a paralyzing fear for almost every human who's ever lived. Our awareness of death has opened a huge vulnerability in our reasoning skills and caused us more death and harm than if we didn't worry about it so much.
Once you have a McGuffin that makes you feel protected from this thing you fear most, you are more likely to reinforce and build further narratives around this idea to protect it. To not protect it, to dismantle it and try to figure it out is literally painful to many people, because it invites in the question... What if you're wrong?" and even approaching that question makes people who have never processed these emotions absolutely fall apart.
edit: I want to add one thing, that the more you think about the really hard thing, your inevitable end, it becomes easier to accept and make peace with. Especially as you get older and more aware of your own limitations and realize you're kinda stuck on rails in this life. There is no bigger story or experience you will miss out on.
it's means it is
It can also be a possessive for it
Um, no? Who told you that? **Its **is already possessive. Like hers, his, ours, theirs.
Yeah it would have been way easier for the apparently all good, all knowing, all powerful god to just, you know, forgive us, but that wouldn't have made for a good book
I want to use an analogy. If you have a landlord who seeks rent every month and you don't give it one month, then you get kicked out and if you can't transport your stuff on time then it gets trashed.
If that landlord made an exception, then the full force of the law would require the exception to be applied equally. Soon enough the landlord would have his stuff turn to shit.
However if a buddy spotted your rent, then asked you to simply remember him and try to do better, then the landlord could retain the perfect administration and the perfect justice, and your buddy could be able to chill with you in cool places.
Most of the time I hear about God the father being perfect justice like the landlord and Jesus being able to extend mercy from the suffering so he can provide mercy if you promise to do better.
Simply saying "why not have no rules if you make the rules" is a good response, but there are probably some side effects if there are not rules maintained.
If there are side effects, then the god is not all powerful like the bible claims.
The thing is, the bible was written by corrupt and greedy humans, the bible has been selected (many books left out or included) by corrupt and greedy humans, modified by corrupt and greedy humans, and translated by corrupt and greedy humans.
If I wrote a book and claimed "it is the direct word of god and this god is the only god that is all powerful and all knowing and better than your god" that doesn't make it true. That is literally what happened thousands of years ago, and nobody could refute it or argue against it because the only people who were literate or educated at all were the elite who had a vested interest in control and order
If there is a god and any of his word actually made it into the cherry picked bible, it is so mangled and corrupted beyond recognition as to be useless and unrecognizable, and people STILL have corrupted it so much further daily that they do not follow a single point of the bible. What makes anyone think that people back then were magically less hateful and had absolute 100% integrity even though there was significantly more war and corruption than now.
I agree with you on all counts.
To add a little more to your arguments: In the times of Isaiah, the current corrupt greedy humans wanted to only refer to dead prophets that they could misinterpret to their hearts' content.
There is a guy who was the founder of Less Wrong that summarized religion vs science like this: if God spoke once and every generation after is less enlightened, then following religion sucks. If science allows you to stand on the shoulders of those who came before where you are continuously becoming less wrong then you can actually do good and become better. Note that I am paraphrasing hard.
Religion that I accept is when there is both individual communication from God and collective leadership from someone who has communication from God. This handles edge cases like when you can't feel God because of "loud hormones/feelings/pain" when you can go to leadership. It also handles you growing at your own pace and creating a personal collection of writings that are like a "you specific scripture".
Religion lacking these traits leads to you being further from God than your parents.
Seeking religion has risks: there is a real risk of "blind leading the blind". Good luck if you choose to pursue religion because the standard used for a godly leader was last defined as a prophet/apostle by Jesus with specific rituals to give authority. The catholic church which curated the bible says they never lost authority. All other Christian religions have to make peace with how authority to get answers on behalf of others is obtained.
Have peace on your journey.
Yeah that's a neat analogy, but it breaks down when you realize that the landlord is supposedly all good, all knowing, and all powerful. If a being with those properties makes a system that can go to shit, or needs to be "fixed", then he either made it that way on purpose and is a monster, or he isn't all knowing and all powerful. Either way, not worth worshipping in my opinion.
I generally try to leave room for everyone at the table, and I think that God can still be worth worshipping. Here is my thought process:
In mathematics there are set theory theorems that prove that some infinities are bigger than others. Therefore a all powerful god (considered infinity over all this observable spacetime) is still progressing (increasing if choosing good) and regressing ( slowing the rate of increase or decreaseing) if choosing evil.
We humans were given the knowledge of good and evil at some point while growing up. We are to be joint heirs with christ (and what power and authority does christ inherit from various ways?). Therefore we humans know and can choose evil or good with infinite side effects some day.
I think/speculate that an infinite god would place hard limits on evil, but I don't know how that would look like. Therefore if there are hard limits then the definition of this system is one that cannot go to shit.
If the process of creating "good" human-children/heirs with infinite side effects requires real choice (not strawman choice) between good and evil, then how could God create this spacetime to allow this?
I think a tendency toward judging choices and choosing good over evil are the preffered properties that are being selected for. I also think these are Emergent properties of neural nets (i think human intelligence are at least partially from neural nets from physical neurons).
I have greater capacity for evil because I know better. I can see where you come from and I respect it. Please poke holes in my theories where there are issues.
Well I am an atheist myself, but the key is that in the old testament god gave every human the blame for the original sin.
And the special thing with Jesus dying and taking all sins with him is, that now god won't hate every human just because Adam and Eve stole some fruits.
This some weird story but yeah. Basically after Jesus, god wasn't that angry anymore.
Okay so he's not angry with me over what my grandparents did, but he can still be angry with me in particular?