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"Being vegan is unnatural"
(discuss.tchncs.de)
cross-posted from: https://discuss.tchncs.de/post/55430533
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this post was submitted on 23 Feb 2026
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Key word.
It's not rape if it's your dog
That's correct, yes.
However, my dog is my property, and someone can only artificially inseminate my property with my permission.
What in the fuck
Anti-vegans will go to any depths of depravity in order to deal with their cognitive dissonance. Once, on Reddit, I got a commenter to agree that he would be fine if someone had a dog in a cage they tortured for entertainment, rather than agree that it's kinda fucked up that we slaughter animals because their flesh tastes nice.
Real question, what if there is no cognitive dissonance.
Like someone who knows exactly what's going on and says "fuck it, it's delicious" ?
I'd ask them to sit down and watch a documentary about the animal agriculture industry (such as Earthlings) to be sure they really do know the truth.
and then , once they acknowledge that ?
The reason i ask is that I’ve never heard an opinion from someone with the viewpoint it seems you hold talk about what they'd think in that situation.
and my follow up would be to ask why meat and not electronics (explained below) or textiles or megacorps ?
In general i struggle with why people place these ethical and moral rubicons in the places they do (i do mostly understand why the lines exist)
I mentioned in another comment about the horrific shit that goes in to basically all electronics (there are numerous documentaries and articles on the horrors of cobalt mining for instance) and it seems odd that people are ok with that but not the meat industry, or perhaps fine with both of those but draw the line at baby animals.
Again, i understand why the lines exist, it's the seemingly arbitrary nature of where they are placed for different circumstances that eludes me.
I'm asking so i can gather opinions enough that hopefully i can understand, eventually
Honestly, if someone is truly aware of the horrors of the animal agriculture industry and is totally fine with it, I would be very, very surprised. I have never experienced anyone who genuinely thinks it's okay. Most people take the position of, "yeah, it's really terrible and I don't like it, but..." which I have to live with because that's most people, but even most of the people who agree it is terrible don't really know the full truth and often they don't want to let themselves find out, because they know in their heart if they truly understood how horrific the industry is, they would feel terrible every time they ate.
If someone genuinely thought it was OK, I would assume that they're a sociopath. Not even in a bad way, necessarily, I have friends who are sociopaths, but I think that's basically the only way you can lack the empathy.
For the follow-up question, there are a few reasons, I'll outline a few of them, happy to discuss further, if you have questions then let me know.
I'm not saying that vegans shouldn't advocate for ethical manufacture and disposal of electronics, I believe wholeheartedly that we should. But it's impossible to have an entire industry for making baby animals, fattening them up, and slaughtering them so that we can make money from people who wish to consume their corpses. It is fucked up on the face of it. Melting metal, pouring it into moulds to make circuitry, etc. doesn't hurt anyone directly, it's capitalism and the drive for maximal profits which cause issues in electronics. I'm a huge proponent for the abolition of capitalism for this reason too.
Hope this helps <3
It does and your points are valid, but i'll respond to a couple if you don't mind.
As would i (outside of the sociopath possibility you also mention) , i was thinking more along the lines of people who fully understand and then accept it as something they can live with.
The comparisons of the meat industry to electronics i mostly agree with, except for this last part, not because it's incorrect as such, i just didn't provide enough context.
I mentioned electronics because it's easy for people to at least shallowly understand how much they use them, what's not so obvious is the horrors of how they are produced, in a similar way to how people as a whole don't really understand how the meat industry is run.
Long before the metal pouring and assembly you have the rare earth elements industry that uses horrific limb-removing slave work camps to extract these minerals. it's not all of them, but it's significantly more than zero.
There are also cartel like warlords involved in some of the extraction sites.
Think of it as a similar situation to conflict diamonds, but more entrenched and critical to nation state interests.
I mentioned cobalt because it's the easiest to find credible documentaries, reports and discussions about, but it's not just cobalt.
Honestly a lot of the big industries are supported by modern day slavery and inhumane conditions or experimentation, i would also assume that extends to the non-human animals as well but i can't honestly speak to that.
Textiles (clothes, shoes, trainers), agriculture (avocado's have cartels because of course they do, coffee), pharmaceuticals, non-meat food (chocolate for example).
I keep coming back to the phrase "There is no ethical consumerism under capitalism" which aligns with your stance on the abolition of capitalism, but i tend to think of it as there is no ethical consumerism in general (at least right now) because i can't think of a way we could ethically overcome the sheer density of population using the level of logistical technology we have available and that's not even taking into account the (subjective) apparent nature of how human's deal with such large populations.
But me not being able to see how we make the jump from now to a post scarcity, fully equitable society is almost certainly just a failure of my imagination.
My main question is how do people seem to be able to decide they can live with limbless kid electronics but slave labour clothes are too far, cartel avocado's are an unfortunate necessity but meat is monstrous.
I understand that not all of those things are equal and battles need to be picked but it doesn't seem like the subjective severity is the deciding factor and how are the battles picked.
Thanks for the reply and for your ongoing civility, I really appreciate that you seem genuinely interested in having a conversation about this.
You don't need to explain to me about the horrors of the electronics industry, I've been an activist opposing extractive industries since my teen years, but of course I'm glad you're raising awareness of it. Heck in my recent comment history I was talking about how I am opposed to EV vehicles and advocating for (green) hydrogen fuel cells due to rare earth extractionism.
I believe that extractionism can never be perfect (i.e. it will always cause some harm) but it's possible to have a mining industry without slavery, murder, etc. and which is ran as ethically as possible to minimize harm on individuals and the environment. As I mentioned in my last comment as well the disposal and recycling of electronics is a massive issue which also needs to be addressed, as well as disposable/single-use electronic products and planned obsolescence.
On the other hand, animal agriculture NEEDS animals to die, and it needs them to die on such a scale that we NEED an industrial approach. I think you could make a pretty compelling argument that an individual hunting animals to feed their family is somewhat ethical (this isn't my position btw, just making the point for the sake of discussion), but that can't really scale up and remain ethical. At a certain point you need to keep the animals in shitty living conditions because otherwise the supply/demand curve would make animal products inaccessibly expensive for regular consumption.
For electronics, I think the biggest reason is the second one I mentioned: it's not really possible to avoid them. Personally I always try to buy everything second hand that I can, especially electronics, but I don't think it's really fair or sustainable to expect everyone to do that, someone has to buy it new to begin with.
A better comparison is blood diamonds. They're entirely optional and the ethical alternative is widely available and cheaper. I think you'd be well within your rights to say that a vegan who insists on blood diamonds is hypocritical. I don't think a vegan using a second-hand cellphone is hypocritical. If they always buy the latest phone I would say that's back to being hypocritical again.
And yeah, scale is a big factor. Over 150,000,000,000 animals are slaughtered in the animal agriculture industry every year. The scale is beyond staggering. Since becoming vegan nearly six years ago, according to the Cowculator app, my personal consumption has resulted in:
The animal agriculture industry is one of the most polluting, most wasteful industries on the planet. It's absolutely mind-warping once you get into the numbers.
I'm not okay with basically anything that occurs under capitalism, but I have limited time on this earth and I have to pick and choose my battles.
Sure, and that's totally valid, nobody is saying you need to become an animal rights activist. I think everyone should try their best to live their values, and that's what I do. It's not about a quest for perfectionism or anything like that, just trying our best as little humans with limited power to make the world a better place.
I love how vegans are literally always someone who fell for fake propaganda and never someone with real knowledge or experience of the agricultural industry.
My one friend was very publicly outspoken in high school about animal activism and veganism and ran a blog on it, then she started vet school, did some internships and saw first hand how the animal industry operates. The blog promptly transformed into debunking these documentaries and their misinformation and sensationalized lies.
So let me get this straight, you were arguing with someone, tried to lead them to a contradiction, but they actually had a consistent view on it that you didn't like, and your conclusion is that they have cognitive dissonance?
My friend, I do not think that means what you think it means.
Most people agree that raping dogs is bad. Maybe they genuinely believe that raping dogs is okay, or maybe they're just saying that to deal with their cognitive dissonance. I would prefer that it's cognitive dissonance, but if they're a dog rape apologist, then they're a piece of shit anyways.
I hope it's cognitive dissonance and not authentic approval of dog rape.
If I own a human slave, me artificially inseminating them without consent isn't rape?
If I DNA test the slave from earlier and discover they aren't human, inseminating them without consent wouldn't be rape?
...
Uh... what are they, then?
I don't think these absurd hypotheticals are helping your argument.
They are a nonhuman animal that has sentience, property of mine. Let's call them hooman.
You know hypotheticals are used to test consistency in someone's logic and answering these will end up in you admitting absurdities. If I wasn't interested in the truth, I would avoid answering them as well.
They're absurd because they're a false equivalency, which is a logical fallacy. Animal livestock are not comparable to human slaves.
What's it say when your logic does not work for real life scenarios, so you have to make up nonsense fantasy scenarios to attempt to force an inconsistency?
Pay attention and read what I've said once more, In no moment I equated nor compared animal livestock to human slaves (btw, even if I would have compared, a comparison is not an equivalency and therefore not false equivalency fallacy).
Now you claiming my logic does not work in real life scenarios is a modal fallacy. My hypotheticals are in the logical scope (true in a possible world), not the physical scope (true in our possible world). You clearly can't answer my hypotheticals because they expose your flaw in reasoning.
Will you answer my questions now or keep avoiding them like fire so you don't burn yourself?
If the scenarios you've proposed cannot be compared or equated to the topic at hand, then they aren't relevant.
If your logic worked in real life or with the topic we are actually discussing, then prove it by sticking to reality.
You also don't seem to have a correct understanding of how false equivalency or modality works, so that's not a great start.
You agreed with:
Also agreed with:
And clarified:
With these, we can derive your proposition: "Forcibly impregnating a dog that is your property is not rape".
I then made the first question:
Which is directly related, I just substituted "dog" with "human slave". No mention of "dog" or "livestock" in the above question, so there's no comparison nor equating as you said "Animal livestock are not comparable to human slaves". (If you disagree, please explicitly point out what is being compared and bring quotes).
Then I posed another question:
I am posing you a logical hypothetical, which means "true in a possible world". If your proposition holds up to logic and reason (i.e. is a resonable proposition), you should be able to answer my logical hypotheticals and stop avoiding them like they'd hurt you.
Your question is fundamentally unanswerable because I don't know what your imaginary "hooman" is (neither do you. As a matter of fact, it isn't even one thing because it will change and become anything you need it to be try to "catch" me in a false gotcha).
My original response still stands: "Uh... what are they, then?" It's a fake thing that you make up and change at will. My logic is never inconsistent, but your subject will be, in an attempt to make it appear that my logic doesn't work. We're talking about apples or oranges, and you're trying to make up a non-defined fruit that is an apple when it suits you and an orange when you need it to be one, so that you can disguise a false equivalency of comparing apples to oranges.
Nice try though. Stick to reality if you want to have a productive discussion. Logical arguments don't actually work the way you think they do. A valid hypothetical argument would require real subjects that are well defined. Perhaps you'd benefit from a 101 class on logic or debate.
You asked for clarification on the second question, yet could at least have answered the first one. Seem like you are avoiding answering the first question.
I don’t know what your imaginary “hooman” is. Imagine a random human you don't know. It's that human, they have every human characteristic but it's discovered they aren't from the species Homo sapiens.I didn't answer it because equating slaves to livestock is reprehensble and disgusting. Of course artificially inseminating any person, no matter free or enslaved, is rape.
So they don't then, do they?
Of course they don't, that's why I used the word "but". Now you also realized why I named them "hoomans" instead of "humans". Good one!
Kinda like we can say "odd numbers are the integers but the multiples of 2". "But" meaning "removed", "without".
Are you gonna answer any of my questions? I don't want other people to have the impression that you avoid questions, but I'm afraid this deep in the thread they might feel like you're avoiding answering.
I have already answered all of them. No one can answer the "question" (invalid due to the flaws I've identified that haven't been addressed) that concerns the "hooman". I would answer it if it could be answered.
And yeah I'm really not worried about that being the impression folks take away from this conversation 🤣
I grant you that.
Now please remind me what was your answer to "If I own a human slave, me artificially inseminating them without consent isn’t rape?".
Also please point out the concern with the second question that went unaddressed.
Scroll up
You can't specifically point to your answer to my question because you haven't answered it. So I'll pose if for the third time:
The same way you can't point to a concern that I left unaddressed, because there isn't. So I'll pose it for the third time as well:
If you can't remember my direct and plain answers to your questions, or do your due diligence to scroll up and reread them, then this discussion cannot be productive. You're not a goldfish, so clearly you're engaging in bad faith. Blocked.
If it applies to one animal it should apply to all, but go ahead and be a special snowflake instead
no. different things are different.
The attitude of someone who mistreats animals ☝️
I don't mistreat animals. this is libelous.
paying someone to kill an animal so that you can consume its corpse is how you treat animals nicely, is it?
I've never done that. most people haven't.
You do it literally every time you purchase a meat product. Meat is made from the dead body of animals. When you buy it, you are retroactively paying for the slaughter of that animal.
money is still bound by linear time. the animal is already dead, and the person who did it is already paid.
You buy dead animal, they kill animal to put on shelf because you bought dead animal.
I'm not responsible for others actions
You know that others will resupply if you buy this thing. If you didn't knew until now that people resupply what you buy, now you know. Making you definitely are responsible from now on.
Imagine I throw candy at the floor an this kid always picks it up. Then I throw candy at the train tracks and the kid gets ran over. Am I not responsible for the kids actions?
knowledge, being a justified, true belief, precludes knowing the future. I cannot know what others will do.
I used "know" in the colloquial sense. Do you think it's unjustified to believe that they will resupply your demand?
since the future hasn't happened yet, no claim about it can, in the present moment, be true. so you can't know it.
I did not use the word "know" in the question "Do you think it’s unjustified to believe that they will resupply your demand?". Notably, I asked if it is unjustified to believe so.
if you will admit that it is impossible to know this, we can follow whatever tangent you like