601
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[-] Ziglin@lemmy.world 26 points 1 day ago

Meanwhile the mathematicians who got a bit too close Philosophy are still arguing about which logic to use and if a proof by contradiction is even a proof at all.

[-] HexesofVexes@lemmy.world 4 points 1 day ago

Ehh...

Gödel basically showed we can never know which "mathematics" is the "correct one".

"Proven true assuming my axioms are true" is closer to reality.

[-] sparkyshocks@lemmy.zip 13 points 1 day ago

Exactly.

HERE'S A THEOREM: IF IT'S PROVEN, IT'S TRUE EVERYWHERE, FOREVER

But at the same time, even if it's true everywhere forever, it might still not be provable, because Gödel.

[-] technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 2 hours ago* (last edited 2 hours ago)

I think saying that a theorem is true presumes the axioms from which it was proven and so the entire system is "true everywhere forever".

I often find it helpful to think of chess as my axiomatic system. When we say the king is in checkmate, it presumes that we accept all the underlying rules of chess. And these pieces that theoretically form a checkmate will always do so forever... Assuming the usual rules of chess, assuming they're unchanging, etc.

When you put things in terms of chess, these "deep" statements about "math" often become banal. And it works for any game that's a "formal system" (eg. most board games).

[-] ytg@sopuli.xyz 2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

even if it’s true everywhere forever, it might still not be provable, because Gödel.

No. Gödel's completeness theorem says that if something is true in every model of a (first-order) theory, it must be provable. Gödel's incompleteness theorem says that for every sufficiently powerful theory, there exists statements that are true sometimes, and these can't be provable.

The key word is "everywhere".

Worse: If the chosen axioms are contradictory, then the theorem is effectively worthless.

And it is impossible to know whether axioms are consistent. You can only prove that they are not.

[-] ytg@sopuli.xyz 3 points 1 day ago

You can go deeper. To prove anything, including the consistency or inconsistency of a theory, you need to work within a different system of axioms, and assume that it is consistent, etc.

[-] pfried@reddthat.com 1 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

But that's math. And its proof is math. And that proof is true everywhere forever.

I see philosophy as a place to make nonrigorous arguments. Eventually, other fields advance enough to do away with many philosophical arguments, like whether matter is infinitely divisible or whether the physical brain or some metaphysical spirit determines our actions.

Since this is a question that math hasn't advanced enough to answer, we can have a philosophical argument about whether other fields will eventually advance enough to get rid of all philosophical arguments.

[-] lemonwood@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

I see philosophy as a place to make nonrigorous arguments.

It's the other way around: math is where you just ignore questions about what makes sense, what knowledge is, what truth is, what a proof is, how scientific consensus is reached, what the scientific method should be, and so on. Instead, you just handwave and assume it will all work out somehow.

Philosophy of mathematics is were these questions are treated rigorously.

Of course, serious mathematicians are often philosophers at the same time.

[-] pfried@reddthat.com 1 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

You're just covering my third paragraph. Yes, everybody is a philosopher because we don't have the tools to do away with philosophical arguments entirely yet.

Once a mathematical proof has been verified by computer, there is no arguing that it is wrong. The definitions and axioms directly lead to the proved result. There is no such thing as verifying a philosophical argument, so we develop tools to lift philosophical arguments into more rigorous systems. As I've shown earlier, and as another commenter added to with incompleteness, this is a common pattern in the history of philosophy.

[-] lemonwood@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 day ago* (last edited 23 hours ago)

I explicitly refer to your second paragraph.

Yes, you absolutely can argue computer verified proofs. They are very likely to be true (same as truth in biology or sociology: a social construct), but to be certain, you would need to solve the halting problem to proof the program and it's compiler, which is impossible. Proofing incompleteness with computers isn't relevant, because it wasn't in question and it doesn't do away with it's epistemological implications.

[-] pfried@reddthat.com 1 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

It is not necessary to solve the halting problem to show that a particular lean proof is correct.

[-] lemonwood@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 day ago

Lean runs on C++. C++ is a turning complete, compiled language. It and it's compiler are subject to the halting problem.

[-] pfried@reddthat.com 1 points 23 hours ago* (last edited 23 hours ago)

The fact that C++ is Turing complete does not prevent it from computing that 1+1=2. Similarly, the fact that C++ is Turing complete does not prevent programs created from it from verifying the proofs that they have verified. The proof of the halting problem (and incompleteness proofs based on the halting problem) itself halts. https://leanprover-community.github.io/mathlib_docs/computability/halting.html

[-] lemonwood@lemmy.ml 1 points 5 hours ago

It's not about those specific proofs. You're claiming, that every possible proof stated in lean will always halt. Lean tries to evade the halting problem best as possible, by requiring functions to terminate before it runs a proof. But it's not able to determine for every lean program it halts or not. That would solve the halting problem. Furthermore, the kernel still relies on CPU, memory and OS behavior to be bug free. Can you be sure enough in practice, yeah probably. But you're claiming absolute metaphysical certainty that abolishes the need for philosophy and sorry, but no software will ever achieve that.

[-] pfried@reddthat.com 1 points 4 hours ago* (last edited 31 minutes ago)

It's not about those specific proofs.

It certainly is about those specific proofs and anything that has been rigorously proven in Lean. We're discussing techniques that show something is correct forever, and those proofs show that something is correct forever. Philosophical arguments don't even show that something is correct today. This is why the examples I gave earlier are now not explained by philosophy but by other systems. Once the tooling exists to lift a discussion out of philosophy, that is the end of philosophical debate for that topic.

Furthermore, the kernel still relies on CPU, memory and OS behavior to be bug free.

Only to a point, just like human language proofs require the reviewers brains to be bug free to a point. The repeated verification makes proofs as correct as anything can get.

[-] sparkyshocks@lemmy.zip 3 points 1 day ago

I see philosophy as a place to make nonrigorous arguments.

Wait do you think Bertrand Russell and Alan Turing and Kurt Gödel weren't making philosophical arguments?

[-] pfried@reddthat.com 1 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

They are clearly mathematical. Starting with definitions and axioms and deriving results from there using mathematical statements.

[-] sparkyshocks@lemmy.zip 2 points 23 hours ago

They are clearly mathematical.

Sure. But they're also philosophical. The categories aren't mutually exclusive. Basic set theory (which is both mathematics and philosophy).

[-] lemonwood@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 day ago

They all debated the question what being mathematical means there whole lives.

[-] pfried@reddthat.com 1 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

And we determined that the resulting incompleteness proofs are valid mathematical proofs whose logical correctness has been verified by computer. https://formalizedformallogic.github.io/Catalogue/Arithmetic/G___del___s-First-Incompleteness-Theorem/#goedel-1

[-] lemonwood@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

They already knew that. You're treading an old worn out logical positivist path, that was inspired by Wittgenstein who worked closely with Russell (both mathematicians and philosophers) and he later saw his error, rejected his positivist followers and explained how truth is not a correspondence to facts, rather meaning is derived from use in language. This applies to all languages, formal and informal, including math and logic.

this post was submitted on 22 Apr 2026
601 points (97.2% liked)

Science Memes

19986 readers
3532 users here now

Welcome to c/science_memes @ Mander.xyz!

A place for majestic STEMLORD peacocking, as well as memes about the realities of working in a lab.



Rules

  1. Don't throw mud. Behave like an intellectual and remember the human.
  2. Keep it rooted (on topic).
  3. No spam.
  4. Infographics welcome, get schooled.

This is a science community. We use the Dawkins definition of meme.



Research Committee

Other Mander Communities

Science and Research

Biology and Life Sciences

Physical Sciences

Humanities and Social Sciences

Practical and Applied Sciences

Memes

Miscellaneous

founded 3 years ago
MODERATORS