236
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 26 Sep 2023
236 points (100.0% liked)
chapotraphouse
13483 readers
917 users here now
Banned? DM Wmill to appeal.
No anti-nautilism posts. See: Eco-fascism Primer
Vaush posts go in the_dunk_tank
Dunk posts in general go in the_dunk_tank, not here
Don't post low-hanging fruit here after it gets removed from the_dunk_tank
founded 3 years ago
MODERATORS
I don’t understand the ultimate goal here. What is the point of this meme that has been flooding lemmy lately? Liberals follow major media outlets. Major media outlets like simple stories of good and bad. So they conveniently ignore things that don’t fit into that narrative…but the same is true of every single world event.
What is the ultimate point of this? It’s obviously not to point out what I just stated. There is a goal here and it seems…like supporting Russia, a global superpower and aggressor, in a war against—what is being painted here as just a bunch of nazis. The unspoken message here is, “you don’t want to support a bunch of nazis. Go russia.”
Am I…missing something?
liberals hate socialists more than they hate fascists, and despite their protestations they will side with the fascists when push comes to shove. this is yet another example of it. no, russia isn't socialist, but the cold war propaganda runs so fucking deep that that fact doesn't actually matter, "russia" is still equated with "communism" 30+ years after the fall of the soviet union.
we don't support russia, we support ending the war with minimal further death. that happens atm to mean "not sending over a bunch of weapons while cheering to send another country's people into a defensively-fortified meatgrinder"
that's ideologically-committed liberals, mind you. plenty of people are just ambiently "liberals" because conservatives are so blatantly odious, so this isn't like a curse or something and normal people can snap out of it before reaching the "defending literal nazis" stage
The ambient libs mostly don't care as much about politics or have checked out partially, they may be outraged over some blatant nazism but they aren't organized or mobilized to do anything about it and will quickly fall back into their malaise.
When the Nazi/fascist minoritarians take power, they usually have the blatant support of around 30% of the population. The other 70% aren't all anti-fascist partisans or Schindler's hiding and saving jews. Most of them are ambient libs who continue being ambient libs/ambient fash and just acclimatize to the the current political zeitgeist.
Speak for yourself, I do and I hope they have complete and total victory over NATO proxies. You have a revolutionary defeatist duty to critically support Russia in this fight against your empire. Fence-sitting is not revolutionary defeatism, revolutionary defeatism means critically supporting the opponents of your own side.
Lenin didn't meant that the SPD has to gather money to send to the Tsarist army though.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1915/jul/26.htm
You agree that NATO/US is perpetuating a proxy war against Russia correct? You live in a NATO country/US? Then it's your duty "really facilitating such a defeat [of one's own government]". That means organizing successful strikes in the war industries and stopping ammo/weapon shipments and raising a stink against money going to Ukraine. It means pointing out the Ukrainian Nazis and desiring their DEFEAT as our own proxies.
I suppose it doesn't truly matter whether you "critically support" Russia or not, as an American or westerner - in that your prayers won't materially empower either side or have any outcome (as long as your still organize against support/weapons for Ukraine with the rest of the revolutionaries). However, when we are having discussions amongst ourselves what good is it to all lie and pretend like we don't want Russia to win? We do, it's in our best interests. I think a lot of westerners just aren't ready to make the final leap to a full revolutionary position - just like many in the 2nd international couldn't and the SPD voted for war bonds to support their own imperialist government, breaking solidarity with the proletariat of other nations. Russia winning is the best outcome though for revolutionaries in the US and across the globe, destroying the hegemonic empire is a necessary pre-requisite step to any revolutionary activity anywhere. AmeriKKKa must be destroyed and Russia is the one doing the most damage to it currently.
Lenin worked with Germany and took resources from them. Marx raised money for the Ottomans. Yes, it in fact does mean opposing your own empire by supporting its opponents (and getting supported by its opponents, in Lenin's case) and sabotaging your own empire.
Fence-sitting is passive and neutral. Revolutionary Defeatism is active and works against ones own empire (de facto supporting its opponents) by being a 5th column. Essentially it's being a reverse-comprador. Instead of being a traitor to your own nation in order to empower a foreign imperialist/colonizer coming into your country, you are supposed to be a traitor to your own imperialist nation in order to empower a foreign colony/target to remove your own empire and its proxies.
This is why one of the most essential tasks of any revolutionary party is to analyze and assess whether their own nation is imperialist or not. Not all capitalist nations are imperialist (Gaddafi being attacked by NATO/US deserves critical support, a Libyan revolutionary should not have sabotaged their own nation during war while an America/NATO resident should have).
The question is who you support though, and revolutionary socialists, including Lenin, didn't give money to the Tsar, Metternich, or George V. They sought out different avenues. Supporting revolutionary groups, articles, only in limited cases sabotages, some criminal acts which disturbed the military supply chains and agitation within the military.
This is a far cry from thinking it is enough to be public about critical support of governments online. The latter would be the equivalent of :vote: for anti-imperialists. The former a principled response that actually figures out what the critical means.
I just kinda don’t want to go posting really hard about it. (This is all I could realistically do and I do not like posting really hard about things)
I don’t understand the ultimate goal here. There is a goal here and it seems…like supporting Nazis, allied with a global superpower and aggressor, in a war against—what is being painted here as just a bunch of Russians. The unspoken message here is, “you don’t want to support Russia. Go Nazis.”
Am I…missing something?
Us: The Waffen-SS ~~was~~ is bad.
You: But whatabout Russia?
A big part of why I ended up hear in hexbear is because it's one of the only places where everybody doesn't lie about your beliefs to just off handedly dismiss your concerns.
It's really interesting how everybody actually in this sub talks about how it's bad Russia invaded and they're deffinitly aggressors and denounce them, we just think nazis are bad.
At a certain point after seeing dozens of people say "you said nazis are bad therefore you support russia" you kind of stop giving a shit what the people actively lying abaout you are saying.
We're sating we don't support a bunchbof nazis.
Dumbshit libs then have to insist that it's because we're just a bunch of Russian nationalists, because otherwise they might have to wrestle with the thought that they're frothing mad at people for saying nazis are bad.
Ok, then I won't lie and will state the truth as bluntly as possible. I personally think the anti-Russia stance of western socialists is chauvinist and incoherent and have argued as much constantly here, with mixed support. As I have explained down below, it's a western socialist's revolutionary defeatist duty to oppose their own empire by being a fifth column and critically supporting its enemies. Lenin was quite clear on this, it does not mean passive fence sitting and both-sidesism. It in fact, is much the opposite. It's active attacks on one's own imperialist government through organized activity to interfere with NATO war funds, NATO war supplies, NATO war support, etc.
It's an incoherent position to say "I oppose my nation's imperialism but I also oppose the enemies of my nation". You don't get to say both. We can argue if the invasion in February 2022 was a strategic error or not, but that doesn't really matter because we are not Russian war strategizers. We are western socialists. Do you understand your place and role? It's to weaken your empire, and if you can work with its enemies to do so you should.
Z. Russia is defending itself and I support their invasion. I think Nazis are bad and need violent action taken against them when they build up concentrated military power. I'm glad someone is finally doing it, despite Putin being a liberal cuck who waited 8 years too long to do it - strung along by EU perfidy.
I've definitely come around from 'war is bad, no one should be at war' to 'the elimination of reactionary forces, specifically those who adorn nazi regalia, is paramount to the continuation of humanity'. Is Russia perfect, no; is Russia killing Nazis at a faster rate than the rest of the world, absolutely yes. Do I want every Nazi in the world dead yesterday, yes; who is going to deliver that goal, Russia; who isn't going to deliver that goal, US and NATO.
I do think it's bad Russia invaded but also both parties are the aggressor here. NATO has been gearing up for this kind of conflict since at least the early 90s. The coup in 2014 was like the dress rehearsal for right now.
Russia invading was honestly a strategic mistake and it's a tragedy this came to open warfare, but it's not like Russia invaded for no reason, or only to secure power for its own sake. The separatists have been fighting in the region for a while.
While the start of the war might have been different, at this point though NATO is the primary aggressor. They refuse any calls for ceasefire from the Russian side, they continue flooding Ukraine with guns, they keep up the message they'll keep fighting until even Crimea is Ukraine again. Just these impossible lofty goals designed to keep the war churning. NATO loves this war. They've cemented Ukraine as a permanent ally against Russia and they have cause to stir up another permanent war. More quagmires.
But the alarm about nazis in Ukraine started during Maidan protests. The phrase 'Revolution of Dignity' was coined by a far-right Ukrainian during this time. This was before Crimea was annexed and the far-right started doing violence against ethnic Russian-Ukrainians in Donbas. This is not a new thing. Canada just made it much more obvious. There's tons of mainstream media reporting from 2014 to 2019 about Ukraine's neo-nazi militias being a major concern.
Zelensky was elected to diffuse this tension within Ukraine. He campaign on resolving this issue peacefully. He won majorities in eastern Ukriane and didn't do as well in the western Ukraine where the Banderites are. Do you know anything about the history of Ukraine?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Ukrainian_presidential_election#/media/File:2019_Ukrainian_presidential_election,_round_2.svg
Tracing the origins of 'Revolution of Dignity':
https://www.researchgate.net/post/When-was-the-term-Revolution-of-Dignity-initially-used-in-reference-to-the-protests-in-Ukraine-in-November-2013-February2014
according to some research here, it started with far-right/fascist political leaders in Ukraine
Oleh Tyahnybok (literally a leader of the national-socialist party of Ukraine) seems to have been the first to popularize the term to a broader audience of Ukrainians. He's the guy in the picture with all the libs and doing the nazi salute.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social-National_Party_of_Ukraine
Since you invoked whataboutism first by bringing up Russia, allow me to invoke whataboutism of my own. Supporting Russia is morally superior to supporting the United States. There is no possible way for you refute this using evidence. While America was engaged in illegal wars of aggression against what, I believe SEVEN different countries under Obama, none of you liberals that supposedly love democracy ever once advocated for the complete and total economic and social isolation of America from the rest of the world until they resolved their authoritarian issues. You NEVER speak about America and its allies with the vitriol you reserve for Russia, China, and Iran, who all commit significantly less violence upon the world COMBINED than America does alone.
Thank you, I’m a fellow hexbear who supports Russia for all its imperfections. I’m also Jewish so I’m happy with almost anyone mercing Nazis. Americans likewise have no right to criticize any other country, and saying that both sides are equally bad merely helps the aggressor, which anyone with an awareness of history prior to 2022 knows is amerikkka.
Western communists should also realize that a clear NATO defeat in Ukraine could create new opportunities for us in our own countries, while I think we all know that a NATO victory will lead to more of the same fucking bullshit.
So...if Ukraine wins or collapses or it just devolves into a forever war, there's going to be a lot more Nazis in eastern Europe and a surge in reaction. Ukraine, if it survives, will be a fascist state once Zelensky looses the unifying pressure of war. If it doesn't Europe will be flooded with ukranian irredentist groups and Polish Gallacia will be essentially fascist.
To preserve NATO, these reactionaries will need to be accomodated, much as Turkey is. Sobthe public must be primed.
The EU has already had to make accommodations with Polish Fascists. And the only reason the Hungarians haven't been rehabilitated is that they're sticking with a pro Russia strategy. The one silver lining is that all these Nationalists hate each other and have trouble coordinating without a dominant party forcing them.
And NATO flooded the region with enough weapons to make the middle east jealous
They found a way to do it in the open with this one, which makes things a little easier.
What others said, but also it's funny to make fun of Canadian parliament eating shit. Standing ovation to a literal uniformed Nazi is pretty embarrassing and they should feel embarrassed.
The putlerbots are so conniving and inscrutable. It sure took a lot of deductive power and analytical prowess to reveal their subliminal agenda!
Z. All Nazis will be obliterated.