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this post was submitted on 14 Oct 2023
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As a wise man/woman once said around here:
The US has two parties: One believes the US should keep supporting Israel's genocide of Palestinians, another believes the US should support Israel's genocide of Palestinians harder.
There are no liberals when it comes to Israel in most of the world (props for Ireland for being the exception).
What exactly is a Biden defender?
Do you believe people deserve carte Blanche defence at all times.
Or can people do some things you agree with and other things you don’t?
Do you think losing an election is going to make moderate Democrats less shitty? Because 2016 just seemed to turbo charge their left-punching impulses. For progressives, I think the best shot at change is giving the Democratic party supermajorities in Congress and control of the White House, demanding they do the popular things they ran on, exposing all the two-faced hacks who never had any intention of doing those things, and then primarying the hell out of them. Allowing Republicans to win just gives the hacks something to hide behind (and it turbocharges their fundraising when that money could be going to a lot better causes).
Fair enough, that was a rhetorical question, which is kind of lazy/obnoxious writing, so let me re-phrase - losing elections to Republicans only makes moderate Democratic party members more obnoxious, and not voting for Dems in general elections is likely to produce that result
Which part of "show restraint and don't kill civilians when taking out the terrorists" strikes you as not "liberal"?
You haven't made it clear at all what you take issue with of telling someone to show restraint. Do you find the very act of retaliation against Hamas for their attack to be unacceptable or something?
According to the article, Biden said:
All of these statements are very easy to defend.
Biden isn't a leftist. He's just less right than his opposition.
If your options were Hitler or Mussolini, which one would be the leftist in your mind since surely there must always be one.
The center is left of the right, genius..
It's not a relative word though. It describes a specific set of political beliefs, which Biden does not hold.... so he's not a leftist. He's a liberal, and barely one at that.
I have personally made the decision to abstain from voting in the 2024 presidential election at this point if Biden is the nominee. I cannot in good conscience vote for another president who clearly learned nothing from the protracted "War on Terror", and who now publicly supports ethnic cleansing by Israel simply to score political points.
I had similar reasons in 2016... regretful
Be sure to vote in the primaries.
Unfortunately with first past the post the only way to vote against the republican candidate is to vote for the Democrat even if he's awful. That's how Biden got elected. And that's why the primaries are so important.
I don’t know why you’re sharing your opinion if you aren’t planning on voting. You don’t care about it so why should anyone else?
Who said I didn't care? I shared my opinion because it's the internet. That's what people do.
I always vote down ballot in every election, and have voted in every election since I was legally able to vote. I understand the importance of local and state elections.
Great. What's your address, so when Trump wins and we descend into ChristoFascism, I can send you flowers and a thank you note?
You entered into this discussion because I said I had an ethical problem with voting for Biden when he continues to justify and tacitly support Israeli war crimes and their continued ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people. Let's not forget that.
Your stupid fucking bullshit take was that I'm the asshole because I even suggested that I was uncomfortable voting for him after that, and was therefore guilty by association in the hypothetical event Donald Trump gets reelected.
I then continued by pointing out that my vote has no legitimate bearing on the electoral process due to the fact that we don't elect candidates based on the popular vote, and my state is already a Democrat stronghold. You want to make me guilty by association to justify your own guilt for supporting imperialist, genocidal, zionist foreign policy with your hypothetical vote I guess. You voted for it, so by your logic that makes you equally responsible for the evil & death carried out in your name via the democratic process that you want to jerk yourself off for supporting.
So, don't be surprised when someone holds you responsible for being an enabler of an ongoing genocide, and an establishment sycophant I guess.
I prefer to be on the side of not supporting psychopathic behavior that is being carried out in the name of religion regardless what fucking flag their country flies, or how much they want to permanently paint themselves out to be the victim. That's something you and Israel have in common actually. You both think you're the victim when really you're the one defending the process of further victimization.
"I'm relying on someone else to do something that I won't do" is not a very compelling statement of personal ethics.
Right there with "My personal ethics is to keep moving, because someone else will stop to help that stranger in need."
You won't do something because you are certain that someone else will do it for you.
That's not personal conviction.
That's only possible if you are 18 years old or younger. In which case it's not saying much.
I don't know where you are getting this idea of "doing something for me".
I explained what the statistical reality is, and you somehow take that as me relying on someone else to do my dirty work by holding their nose and voting for someone they don't want to vote for in order to make up the gap. Well that just isn't the fucking case.
I was being slightly hyperbolic about Democrats winning with 60% of the vote, so I actually just looked up the statistics since 1990. It has tilted blue by an average of +20% points since then.
So please, be more pedantic, and tell me how you think me choosing not to vote for Biden makes a shit bit of difference because it doesn't.
If you need to know what people around you are doing before you can decide what to do, then you aren't acting out of personal conviction.
If you were truly acting out of personal conviction, then your state statistics would be completely irrelevant to you.
The reason we even entered into this conversation was because the original person I was responding to suggested that me not voting for Biden would somehow impact whether or not Trump could potentially be reelected. It can't, and won't for the statistical reasons that I mentioned.
However, you are correct that me choosing not to vote for Biden again based on my disagreement with his tacit support for Israeli war crimes has nothing to do with that statistical reality.
Then the original person you were responding to was right.
If Trump wins, people who chose to abstain from voting regardless of the consequences will share the blame. People like you.
I explained my position, you explained yours.
I still think you're a pedantic fuck & a debate pervert.
You still think I'm responsible for Trump HYPOTHETICALLY getting reelected.
Seems we're at an impasse.
No, I think that if Trump gets re-elected, then you are partly responsible.
If Trump is not re-elected, then you're not responsible for anything except being rude.
You chose to respond, and then started playing little semantic word games over a hypothetical scenario regarding my hypothetical vote that I haven't even cast yet.
So, yeah, I came at you because you came at me first. Don't like it? Then keep your opinions to yourself I guess...
You were rude before I entered the conversation. I'm here to support the person you rudely responded to. Are you suggesting that you are entitled to be rude whenever people with disagree with you?
And this is not a "semantic word game". People like you were actually responsible for the actual, non-hypothetical, election of Trump in 2016. If he is re-elected, then people like you will again be responsible.
I'm entitled to speak my mind, and defend my position. You want to play the victim, and act offended after voluntarily entering a conversation.
No, it was because Hillary Clinton was a historically bad candidate that enough voters didn't like, trust, or identify with. But go off 🤴, keep blaming the people in this country for the failings and entitlement of the political class while they continue selling us out by making people pick between the lesser of two evils.
Hillary Clinton was a bad candidate and people like you are responsible for electing Trump. Both are true.
Just as it is true both that Obama was a good candidate and that people like me are responsible for electing him.
Choosing between flawed candidates is what democracy is all about. Always has been.
I'm surprised you can reach your keyboard from up there on your high horse. I voted for Hillary Clinton even though I didn't trust her, and knew she was a chicken hawk. So shut your fucking mouth about me doing shit to get Trump elected.
I knew he was dangerous from day one while Hillary and the DNC were the ones PROPPING HIM UP AS A JOKE CANDIDATE. Well who's laughing now? Please keep blaming me for shit I had nothing to do with you fucking pussy. Fuck you.
As I said, people like you are responsible for electing Trump in 2016. Back then apparently you were wiser than now.
The people who VOTED FOR DONALD TRUMP are exclusively responsible for ELECTING DONALD TRUMP.
"People like you" are the reason why there are so many apathetic voters in this country. They are are tired of being guilted or shamed into voting for terrible candidates simply to keep things from devolving into a fascist or Christian nationalist hellscape and then being ragged on by "People like you" for daring to eat that bucket of shit without sticking a smile on their face in the process.
See, we can both use weasel words. 😘
Nobody is asking you to smile.
You can choose to keep things from devolving into a fascist or Christian nationalist hellscape, or choose to do nothing and let the world burn. Either way it's your choice, and don't be surprised when anyone holds you responsible for that choice.
You're a grown-up who has seen how actual democracies function in the real world, so you should know by now that waiting for a unicorn to vote for is the equivalent to doing nothing.
And for everyone who is "guilting and shaming" you, there are five others who are intentionally pointing out the faults in candidates because they want you to walk away.
Our outrage-obsessed media is designed to make you feel bad about whoever you vote for. Case in point: the media made you believe Biden "publicly supports ethnic cleansing".
You entered into this discussion because I said I had an ethical problem with voting for Biden when he continues to justify and tacitly support Israeli war crimes and their continued ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people. Let's not forget that.
Your stupid fucking bullshit take was that I'm the asshole because I even suggested that I was uncomfortable voting for him after that, and was therefore guilty by association in the hypothetical event Donald Trump gets reelected.
I then continued to point out that my vote has no legitimate bearing on the electoral process due to the fact that we don't elect candidates based on the popular vote, and my state is already a Democrat stronghold. You want to make me guilty by association to justify your own guilt for supporting imperialist, genocidal, zionist foreign policy with your hypothetical vote I guess. You voted for it, so by your logic that makes you equally responsible for the evil & death carried out in your name via the democratic process that you want to jerk yourself off for supporting.
So, don't be surprised when someone holds you responsible for being an enabler of an ongoing genocide, and an establishment sycophant I guess.
I prefer to be on the side of not supporting psychopathic behavior that is being carried out in the name of religion regardless what fucking flag their country flies, or how much they want to permanently paint themselves out to be the victim. That's something you and Israel have in common actually. You both think you're the victim when really you're the one defending the process of further victimization.
First of all, Biden doesn't support genocide or ethnic cleansing, "tacitly" or otherwise.
Second, if you are against genocide or ethnic cleansing, then you could prove it by helping to elect the candidate who is less likely to pursue it. In the next election, that candidate will almost certainly be Biden. If you don't vote, then nobody should believe you are actually willing to do the bare minimum to stop it.
Finally, nobody cares where you live. If you supported Trump, you would most certainly be held accountable even if you lived in California. Same is true if you declined to oppose Trump.
He has proven otherwise over the last week by continuing to overtly support Israel's use of asymmetrical warfare in order to wipe out Palestinian civilians in a slow motion genocide. Thus, my frustration and ultimate choice not to vote for him again. He could have made the decision to call for peace instead of scoring political points at the expense of civilian lives.
Biden is currently continuing to support the neo-conservative, zionist, apartheid state of Israel in their ongoing genocide against Palestinian civilians. No matter what candidate you vote for you will likely be providing material support to that reality given the current plausible options. So, I am making the decision not to support any candidate who supports that foreign policy objective because unlike you I'm not a fucking hypocrite.
We've been over this. The only people who are responsible for Donald Trump are the people in this country who voted for him willingly. Get that through your fucking head.
No, he hasn't supported Israeli action against civilians. Your suggestion otherwise proves that you aren't even bothering to read Biden's statements on the matter.
In the linked article, he warned Israel to obey international law when retaliating against Hamas.
Today, he warned Israel not to occupy Gaza, adding:
"Hamas and the extreme elements of Hamas don’t represent all the Palestinian people ... There needs to be a Palestinian Authority. There needs to be a path to a Palestinian state."
Meanwhile, the State Department is working to reopen humanitarian aid corridors to Gaza:
We've been over this, but you keep getting it wrong. The people responsible for Trump include those who won't lift a finger to stop him.
Doing nothing in the face of evil does not free you from responsibility for evil. Ask any German.
Oh ok so by not voting, you're actually voting for the GOP, therefore making the problem even worse.
Good job!