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this post was submitted on 25 Oct 2023
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Fuck Israel.
Fuck Hamas though. Aiming for and killing civilians in hundreds is not a good thing.
Hamas exists because Israel have been oppressing Palestine for so long. It doesn't mean they're "the good guys", just a reaction to violent oppression but with more violence.
That's not why Hamas exists lmao. Who do you think they are, some sort of noble freedom fighters?
I'm not sure how you arrived at "noble freedom fighters" from what I said. The evidence is clear that they aren't. Hamas has existed for almost as long as this conflict has and formed when Palestinian protests were met with violence. Hamas's solution is to use violence against Israel which makes Israel respond with more violence. At the centre of all this are Palestinians who remain oppressed and now are in the crossfire.
I mean not really; they were formed in the 80s.
As time goes on it gets closer and closer to existing as long as the conflict has. We're over the half way mark here
You also forget to add that one of the main goals as denoted I the original Hamas charter is destruction of Israel. They are fighting for extermination of the Israel, while Israel is fighting for its security and the right to exist.
Israel is fighting for it's right to exist? What a deliriously stupid fucking statement, holy shit.
Thank you for not contributing into discussion, not presenting any argument.
A settler colony founded on ethnic cleansing has no right to exist
Sure, that explains why United Nation overwhelmingly voted for formation of the state of Israel.
I didn't know truth was a popularity contest
We are talking about the right of Israel to exist. And in international law voting in UN and acceptance by countries is how things are done.
Why does an invading military have a right to exist or defend itself? By your logic Russia has a right to defend itself form the Ukrainians
Palestine statehood is recognized by many countries but denied by the Israeli occupation and blockade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_the_State_of_Palestine
If Hamas was shooting ONLY to the military that enters their state, we would have different conversation.
Hamas targets militants and armored vehicles while Israelis target children. You can look at the casualties and see for yourself
You have it confused in your head. Hamas is recognized terrorist organization, it launches hundreds, no, thousands rockets per week into Israel in order to kill specifically civilians. It entered Israel recently in order to specifically kill civilians. All Israel does is trying to destroy Hamas, but Hamas is using human shields. Hence the casualties (although, in any war there would be civilian casualties as collateral damage, due to the use of human shield by Hamas, they are especially large in Palestine). Stop being intellectually dishonest with phrases like "Israelis target children", you do not do yourself or anyone else any favor by this.
No, you got it all backwards. Palestinians have a right to resist a military occupation on their land that denies them their basic rights as human beings. Hamas did not go to Europe to kill Israelis, they broke through the blockade.
they are shooting missiles at the towns they were expelled from in 1948 and 1967.
https://mondoweiss.net/2023/10/a-growing-number-of-reports-indicate-israeli-forces-responsible-for-israeli-civilian-and-military-deaths-following-october-7-attack/
How did they kill more than 4000 in less than a month? More than what Russia killed in 18 months in Ukraine. What you miss is that Israel and Israelis are racist as fuck and dehumanize Arabs.
The following videos will inform you on the context you are missing.
Israeli students talk about killing Arabs and enslaving them https://youtu.be/xIOeWAyMG9I
Israeli school principal explains Israeli racism https://youtube.com/shorts/OenA7OqJeDs
Old veterans laughing as they recall the Tantura massacre in 1948 https://youtu.be/MQ1TAOibLss
Israeli soldier celebrating sniping a Palestinian kid in the head https://youtu.be/j_SNBsp4MEA
This is a lie. But even if true, you are implying human shields even if women and children are a fair target. https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2018/6/18/the-fallacy-of-israels-human-shields-claims-in-gaza/
https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/busting-the-myth-of-palestinian-human-shields-in-gaza-46645
But if Palestinians are human shields then why not Israeli settlers? Over half of who died on Oct 7 were active Israeli military, and many of the civilians died in the crossfire by Israeli bullets.
Let me repeat - human shields. The blame is on Hamas. If Israel wanted to target and kill civilians it would have done in in a day. Hell, in half an hour.
And jews where expelled from nearly all Arab states, (and from Europe by Nazis). So, it gives them right to target and bomb all civilians in all Arab states??
And it looks like you are okay with targeting civilians, as long as Hamas it is doing. And blaming Israel for targeting Hamas that uses human shields? The hypocrisy is astonishing. It is not even hypocrisy. The hypocrisy would have been if Israel actually were to target civilians (which it does not) and you where not okay with it while okay with what Hamas did the same. That would be hypocrisy. But since Israel not even targeting civilians, your position does not even have a word in a dictionary. (well, maybe antisemitism, but I will give you a benefit of a doubt and not going to call you that).
Gaza was not occupied. And what Hamas did, shows that maybe they were wrong in leaving Gaza completely.
Look, I sympathize Palestinians, and I think that there should be two state solution at the end. But it just can not happen when there is Hamas in power whose declared goal is distraction of the neighbouring state and who is purposely targets and kills civilians. The tragedy of all that is that simple Palestinians become hostages of Hamas and dying as result of it.
The human shield myth is disproven and if Hamas were hiding in Tel Aviv we all know the Israeli military wouldn’t bomb it
The Israeli government itself made it clear the goal is another Nakba.
You need to view the videos I shared with you. Read what Israelis such as Gideon Levy and Illan Pappé say about the occupation and ethnic cleansing.
https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2023-10-09/ty-article-opinion/.premium/israel-cant-imprison-2-million-gazans-without-paying-a-cruel-price/0000018b-1476-d465-abbb-14f6262a0000
Lol! You can't "exterminate" a state, genius. It's a state. You remember what those are?
Well, tell that to Hamas.
Israel is a colonial project that invaded Palestine. It has no right to exist.
This argument is 70 years old. And United nation disagrees by voting FOR formation of the state of Israel back then.
The UN also voted for the creation of Palestine and the Zionist settlers still wont allow it
That’s fair criticism, however, Gaza is independently governed and was not occupied. Hamas is the main reason why true 2 state solution is not possible at the present. Remove Hamas, remove terrorist organization in power in Gaza whose goal is to destroy Israel, then the 2 state solution is reality.
If you try to make Palestine state with Hamas in power, then the moment the borders are opened it will get more and more advanced armament to attack Israel. Why on earth Israel would agree to that?
If Gaza is independently government then how can Israel cut off water, electricity, food and fuel unilaterally?
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/defense-minister-announces-complete-siege-of-gaza-no-power-food-or-fuel/
I am sorry. This is not "targeting civilians" in order to kill them. And "human animals" in this context is Hamas. IDF would not siege Gaza if there were no Hamas inside.
At the same time, while cutting electricity and fuel is effective in terms of reducing Hamas capability to fight, I am partly agreeing with you that cutting water and food makes no much sense. This is because Hamas would have food and water anyway (they would not share with civilians either). Cutting electricity and fuel is more effective though.
This does not change anything I said before. The IDF goal is not to kill civilians, but create conditions where it is more difficult for Hamas to fight. The goal is to destroy Hamas, and civilians are victims of this war, started by Hamas, used by Hamas.
The intent is ethnic cleansing. They have said as much that the goal is to depopulate the Gaza Strip. They have called Palestinians “human animals”.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/defense-minister-announces-complete-siege-of-gaza-no-power-food-or-fuel/
No, he clearly called Hamas “human animals” since they are not fighting Palestinians, but Hamas.
Yet they cut off food, water, fuel, electricity and Internet to over 2.3 million Palestinians over 40% are children. They killed over 10,000 who over 4000 of them are children. The actions clearly suggested they were collectively punishing them all which is a war crime. Israel is a pariah state and acting like it and the US is equally guilty for the genocide. The intent is genocide, and what we are witnessing is exactly that.
Israel bombed a refugee camp this week killing the entire family down to the grandchildren of a journalist it did not like. Hamas are bad guys doing bad shit no doubt about it, Israel are the bad guys though, it's through their actions that all of this has come. They have displaced and systematically culled an entire people.
I'm not defending what Hamas did, but when your corner people and inch closer and closer to them, applying pressure and pressing down your boot you do not get to be surprised when they lash out.
Israel failed it's people.
It is possible for a story to have two sets of bad guys.
Only one of them is attempting to eradicate the other and receiving support from western countries, up to and including military aid.
No, both of them are attempting to eradicate the other. It's very true there's a massive power disparity, and obviously Israel gets a huge amount of western support. Let's not fool ourselves though: if Hamas had the power to genocide every Jew in Israel, they would.
DISCLAIMER BEFORE SOMEONE TRIES TO MISINTERPRET ME: Hamas only represents a small number of Palestinians, and the PLO has been entirely peaceful since the 90s. This in no way justifies Israel's response.
That disclaimer is doing a lot to be fair, it is the legitimate government with the people's support committing these atrocities while it is a terrorist organisation that seized control in Palestine that is doing it on the other side. While I'm not naive enough to think there is no support from eithers population it is the case that this situation has been pushed on Palestinians whereas Israel have opted for it.
For context, the numbers I've seen suggest it's around 57% of Gazans have at least a "somewhat positive" view of Hamas. However, 62% of Gazans supported Hamas maintaining the ceasefire (ofc this was before the attack).
The crazy part is, that had Israel had a calm and measured approach, using targeted munitions on confirmed targets only, minimizing civilian casualties, kept the food+water+electricity flowing during the military action, and kept firm rule of law vs settler reprisal attacks in the west bank, they would have moved the needle on Hamas support.
Now they've all but guaranteed the radicalization of a new wave of terrorists for the foreseeable future. This unjustified violence is truly self-defeating.
Sure but after this resolves, you'll happily go back to ignoring Israel's daily crimes against Palestinians and just wait until Hamas does something else to start complaining again
Hamas is blowback for Israel's insane policy of keeping people on reservations, denying them freedom and controlling all basic necessities and.
Israel is a fascist apartheid state 365 days a year
Me? No. I have always criticized Israel for what it was doing, but as long as “destroy Israel” attitude exists in Palestine, quite a few things were justified.
And if Hamas were to disappear tomorrow who will oppose the Israelis?
You?
Screw Israel government. Screw Hamas. Screw West Bank illegal settlements. Screw Netanyahu.
Support the civilians of Israel and Palestine.
Not that hard to take this stance.
Exactly.