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this post was submitted on 04 Nov 2023
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chapotraphouse
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We've known since WWII that armor needs infantry support yet armies keep trying to treat them as stand alone cavalry because that branch of the army still exists. And then they drive them into a city just like you would do with cavalry...
That said. There's a lot of clips here of tanks being hit with RPGs but nothing of a tank actually being destroyed.
This has been an :armchair-emoji: minute. Also we need an armchair emoji
The problem with infantry support is that nobody wants to do that shitty job. They all want to be in the tank. The giant metal beast with a fuck-you cannon keeps you from catching shrapnel in the face or taking a bullet in the neck.
Israelis want to kill for their country, but they don't want to fucking die for it. Commanders know that. So they tell their troops that you can just get into the giant steel box and feel safe while you roll through enemy territory. Nevermind the fact that IEDs make the vehicle decidedly unsafe. You're sure as fuck not going to want to be outside the tank when a big fucking land mine goes off.
One more reason everyone wants to be in the fucking tank.
Extremely America-brained to do "shock and awe" bombing and then send in $6M tanks without infantry support to fight guys with $100 home-made RPGs.
Money isn't an object to a country that gets billions a year to stockpile weapons.
And Israelis consider their lives (particularly their own lives) far more valuable than the $6M hardware they'll lose in the exchange.
It's kind of insane that you have people comparing this to Mosul and Fallujah, with a laundry list of things that the US did RIGHT in those clusterfucks compared to what the IDF is doing now.
See I have the opposite kind of cowardice, where I would prefer to be outside of and well away from the huge high value target. Just staying on the outside of that survivability onion.
I feel that, but I heard that in WWII infantry was just waaaaaay more dangerous than tanking, big percentage differences in how many people got killed
I'm fairly sure this is a deliberate choice on the part of both hamas and hezbollah. Both have definitely destroyed Merkavas but neither have released any footage of the aftermath of a hit, only the explosion, nothing further.
I don't know the exact reason they're not releasing more but at this point with so many confirmed kills (by Israel) there must be a reason for it.
honestly, considering that Hamas at least is a guerilla force operating out of tunnels against a horrific bombing campaign and a foe with air superiority, their troops probably have to GTFO as fast as they can after any attack. RPG troops don't stick around to see the aftermath of their attack usually, you want to shoot and then immediately retreat to cover or a flanking position in case the tank or its allies return fire.
This was my thought, okay I got some great footage of my tandem and their merkava kissing, I'm outta here b4 someone finds me peeping
The holy doctrine of 'shoot and scoot.'
US never used armour like this. They deployed infantry to this kind of thing. Look at the battle of Fallujah for the closest time the US has been in this kind of thick combat, all infantry fighting with light vehicle support. Heavy armour stayed in distant support and diversionary roles. Never presenting side/rear armour to enemies, this is the major factor really, tanks are designed to be hit from the front, they really not armoured for direct hits from anti tank weapons to the sides, top and rear.
Also the RPGs are not the same. Although similar. I get the impression the Yasin performs slightly better than the RPG7.
https://hexbear.net/post/1003449
i have to wonder if they DO have infantry support significantly ahead of them, while hamas uses tunnels or just knowledge of the terrain to flank for surprise attacks. Generally a tank has more range than infantry and they try to hang back as much as possible AFAIK, modern infantry tank tactics are a lot different than ww2 infantry and tank tactics. like if i was a tank i'd want to be down the road behind my infantry support in an urban scenario. maybe you would need an engineering/mine clearing vehicle in front in some scenarios but you'd want even more infantry support or other armored vehicles.
another thing i wonder is if these tanks aren't being surprise attacked during noncombat tasks behind the 'frontlines'
Isn't infantry supposed to be laying in the vicinity of the tanks ready to shoot guys who literally run up to the tanks? I'm not a modern military tactics guy. But I'm pretty sure infantry support doesn't mean the tank just sits somewhere else by itself
In reality they just sit on the tank and hop off when things are sus. Or hide on the other side of the tank.
Ah so they would get blasted off the tank by RPGs even if, or especially if, they get intercepted by trophy systems, so they don't wanna go.
you generally don't want to let the enemy get close enough to shoot a tank with an anti tank weapon, let alone run up to it, that's what the infantry is supposed to be preventing. its harder in urban warfare but you generally want to keep as far away as possible from the enemy, especially in terms of western combat doctrine because we generally have superior optics, but in general you want to engage at the maximum useful range of your weapon system. its true that, when not directly being shot at, a lot of soldiers in a lot of militaries will ride on the outside of armored vehicles, but modern explosive reactive armor and trophy systems make that more dangerous these days, and they still ideally dismount and find cover before combat or as soon as it begins at least.
my pet fanfiction/hypothesis is that some of these tanks were part of units that were further away doing something else (like demining or investigating a tunnel entrance or securing a known hostile position) while the tank was providing overwatch, meanwhile hamas fighters use the tunnels to flank to much closer to the tank than expected to make a surprise attack. all of the tanks in the compilations seemed to be stopped or very much slowed down before getting attacked, like they were distracted or busy or something, at least.
Hmm very interesting, Hamas could have even known where to engage them in the front to cause them to put overwatch a certain distance back. The tunnels were SO close its crazy