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It was in self-defence 🙃
(lemmy.world)
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this post was submitted on 08 Feb 2024
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Both Israel and Hamas have blood on their hands. I know we all like the whole Good vs. Bad but in an eye for eye situation, they are both wrong. People, on both sides, suffer. If the politicians would fight on the front, they would be less eager to create these situations.
Edit: I am not defending the Israeli Actions nor the Hamas actions. It is fucked up situation. Israel in the first place, shouldn't have been created. However it is, and they should make the best of it. WITHOUT COMMITTING GENOCIDE. For people who believe in a good God, they sure are willing to kill.
All I am saying is that the ones that are not fighting, are suffering. Rockets land in Gaza, Rockets land in Israel. People, yes on both sides, are dying.
I am against the actions of Hamas, I am very against the actions of Israel.
Israel is not fighting against Hamas. Israel is fighting against all Palestinians, of which only a tiny fraction is Hamas. Well or rather they are fightinf against Hamas, but they are slaughtering the other Palestinians.
Israel is past the need to defend itself. Now they are taking the opportunity to commit genocide and displace the Palestinians from Gaza.
What do you propose Israel do about all of the missiles being fired by Hamas?
Don't they already have the Iron Dome? That btw lets missiles drop on "poor Palestinian areas" because their systems categorize them as "empty lands"?
What do you suggest they do? Aside from killing every man, woman and child, of course?
I suggest Israel root out Hamas. Then hold elections to create a Palestinian government that's willing to negotiate with Israel for their own state
The iron dome also isn't perfect and doesn't change the intent. If I make my house bullet proof and you shoot it every day in the hopes of killing me at some point I have the right to get rid of you by some method surely?
To do "self defence", all Israel had to do was guard its borders and have some diplomatic solution that didn't completely dehumanize Palestinians, maybe policies that listen to expert opinions on these subjects and how this is causing extremism to double. They didn't need to invade "in self defence".
Funny how that works both ways.
Alright so from your perspective it seems you expect Israel to do all the heavy lifting here. Just ignore the attacks and hope Hamas is willing to negotiate one day? Even though they make it clear they want to remove Israel
What should the Palestinians/Hamas be doing? Continuing with their current course of action until Israel decides to do something different?
Giving people rights and ending apartheid and reducing extremism is heavy lifting? As opposed to now???
But yes I expect the supremacist colonial landgrabbers to do the heavy lifting.
So what exactly does that entail? Remove all troops, accept continued missile attacks and pray that Hamas eventually gets sick of it and negotiates?
I don't think you're really considering the actions and goals of Hamas here. Is anything they do justified as long as they don't have their own state away from Israel?
And surprlse surprise how you spin the discussion in the last question towards wanting to make me look like someone who justifies kidnapping and murder
I'm not spinning anything. I want to know why you expect Israel to do all the work towards peace?
Do you expect Hamas to change nothing? Because I can't imagine telling Israel "hey we know these guys are firing missile after missile at you but can you please stop fighting back and let them continue"
Realistically the first move towards peace without continued conflict has to come from Hamas. Or Israel need to have removed Hamas completely, pick one
Please. Don't shit me.
Your last question:
What a nice false dichotomy, though!
In any case, how sad them for Israel that it has successfully created the Hamas of today and tomorrow, and for years to come because of its violent approach.
Based on this I'll just assume you have nothing further to say At this point you aren't really engaging and I think it's fairly clear why
Anyway have a good one mate. Hopefully this conflict comes to and end sooner than later
Whatever you need to say
I propose Israel stop the weapons embargo on Gaza, allowing Gazans to arm themselves. The embargo obviously doesn’t work for keeping weapons from Hamas. It does, however, make the honest people of Gaza totally powerless to resist their dictators.
Have you ever wondered what those people might have experienced that would lead them to hate Israel so much?
That's a different point, isn't it? The comment above seems to suggest that Hamas doesn't have support from the vast majority of Palestinians. In reality, if they had weapons, it appears they might use them the exact same way Hamas did.
I was directly replying to that point.
So only 30% of Gazans don’t support what Hamas is doing? Gee I wonder what would happen if 30% of a country rose up against its dictators.
Much tinier percentages of people have overthrown dictators.
If those 70% want to pick up weapons to attack Israel, then at a bare minimum it would mean less injustice in the Israeli bombings. (still massive injustice even if only 30% in an area are non-combatants don’t get me wrong).
Gazans are being held, in a de facto sense, responsible for the actions of Hamas, in the sense they are feelings the attacks meant for Hamas.
But without the opportunity to bear arms, Gazans cannot, in any circumstance, be actually ethically responsible. They are being actively prevented from taking a stance of responsibility because they are actively prevented from having any power.
Weapons are power. Without power they can have no responsibility. And yet they are being held responsible by Israeli weapons. It is unjust.
Gazans should have the opportunity to throw off their dictators. If they take that opportunity, and instead use it to join those dictators, so be it. They can feel the consequences of that. They already are.
The blockade of weapons prevents this situation from resolving in a just way.
I'm sorry, but whose currently suffering on the Israeli side? Because Gaza is literally starving. And the Aid trucks are idling at the border with food that the IDF refuses to let through.
Possibly the families of some of the people killed by Hamas. I bet they’re suffering.
Yeah I bet their friends are doing things like bringing them food to help and their jobs are giving them extra time off or something.
Yes, that is generally part of grieving.
Both of which are things the families of 27,000 Gazans cannot do right now. They have no jobs, no food, and there's a good chance their friends are dead too.
The calculus changes when everything from ambulances to children could be actual, literal bombs.
Edit: oh and, Israel isn’t the only country that borders Gaza.
That's a really weird way to say, "I'll kill any Palestinian that moves, even the cattle, because I can't even bother viewing them as human beings".
Would it be acceptable if someone shot an Israeli ambulance, saying, "well, you never know these days, these ambulances are full of IDF ready to attack!"?
Nope, and neither should the opposite.
Nope. No you don't get to go down that road. We dealt with that uncertainty in Iraq without causing a massive famine or using 2,000 pound bombs. There are no excuses for genocide, and certainly not victim blaming.
It sounds like you’re saying if Jihadists use ambulances and children then there’s no defense. Just lay down and die.
Sounds like you're trying to lump every person in Gaza in with Hamas. Professional soldiers have procedures for those situations. Ones Israel isn't using.
I’m not.
I’m very clearly saying that when you’re fighting a group who straps bombs to kids, you have to consider that even those appearing to be regular civilians might be a threat.
Oh but you are. Because we've done this. We know how to deal with those problems without committing a genocide. The only reason to answer charges of genocide with , "but the kids might have weapons!" Is to blame the victims.
That's like blaming Jews during world war 2 for putting up resistance against their fascist rulers. It is such a mischaracterization of the situation that it is damaging to the Palestinian people.
Yeah an eye for an eye if you're a barbarian. 30 eyes for each 1 is... something else.
And it's not like the fascist Israeli settlers didn't start their share of murder before Okt.7: Israel Escalates Genocidal Violence Against Palestinians In The West Bank - YouTube TMR Jul.8th 2023
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
Israel Escalates Genocidal Violence Against Palestinians In The West Bank - YouTube TMR Jul.8th 2023
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