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this post was submitted on 14 Mar 2024
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We don’t understand why Biden doesn’t stop supporting Israel.
Its like supporting Bibi would lose Biden votes, but not supporting him wont. Yet he still goes out of his way to support them.
You could understand if you wanted to. It's the majority view held by the intelligence and foreign services of most western powers and virtually everyone in Washington. It's not like they are hiding the explanation.
Try to see the bigger picture and what this proxy war means for the world. If thirty thousand deaths make you too sad to vote for Biden and that results in reelecting Trump, how sad will you be when Iran shoots its shot against Israel and we're here on Lemmy talking about thirty million deaths and a cascade of failed states throughout the Middle East and eastern Europe fueled by the unprecedented humanitarian crisis and masses of refugees?
What does it mean for the world and for human rights everywhere if the western powers allow the only democracy in the middle east to fall to actual, for-real, far right religious extremists, who will actually, for-real genocide every Jew in the middle east in favor of an Islamic religio-ethno dictatorship?
How does ceding Israel to actual fascists advance the interest of lasting peace or human rights, especially if it ends up reelecting Trump, who will never leave office if he gets in again?
Maybe instead of throwing away democracy in America and the middle east, we can maybe appreciate that 30,000,000 is more than 30,000?
Maybe it makes more sense if we use America's persuasive power to see Netanyahu and his party defeated at the ballot box? Wouldn't that be much better for the world?
Biden isn't the roadblock to peace in Gaza. He didn't cause the situation or prolong it in any way. Israel has all the weaponry and fighters it needs to turn Gaza and the West Bank into a sheet of glass in about ninety minutes if it wanted. Even with conventional weapons, they could carpet bomb the entirety of Palestine many times over before the loss of US support disrupted Israeli's defensive posture as to Gaza.
It is Israel's posture as to Iran that dictates America's course, and frankly it's not that hard of a choice given the stakes. Continued support is continued leverage, whereas ending support ends any leverage America may have over what Israel deeply considers to be, more or less, a local police matter.
Excusing Palestinian deaths by saying 30,000 had to die so that 30 million in the future don't get killed in some fantasy scenario that has not happened and is unlikely to happen.
This is what you are doing here.
Emotionally protecting yourself from 13 thousand dead children.
(Btw kids, please don't vote for Trump, but also don't allow bs like this to cheapen Palestinian blood)
lol. Israel is not a democracy. 5 million Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza are non-citizens without a vote. The PA is entirely under the thumb of Israel, and Palestinians in the West Bank live in apartheid. Gaza has been besieged and abused for 20 years. Your precious "Only Democracy in the Middle East" is a last bastion of proud European colonialism. The one colony that is still establishing new settlements and clearing "savages" from new land. America long ago divested itself of the Phillipines, but we pour money and weapons into our client colonial state between the river and the sea.
Can you name any country where non citizens have a right to vote?
Apartheid is something that a country does to its own citizens.
When a third of your population aren't citizens, and in fact most of their families have lived there since the Ottoman Empire, while your citizens have mostly immigrated from abroad in the mid-1900s, and have pushed the non-citizens who predated them into ghettos, you can call it whatever you want. But it's repugnant.
That's great, let's agree that all of that is true; nothing will erase the original sin will it?
The starting point to peace is right now. How we got here does not have to dictate where we go from here.
What is it that you're advocating with the land records line of reasoning, that the Israel government is evicted, that democracy in the middle east ends, and gets replaced with an Islamist caliphate, because the Jews did not inhabit the Levant during the Ottoman empire? Hmm, where were they again?^1^ But moreso, who were the inhabitants at the beginning of recorded history? I mean if you want to go back to the records and do a title search, go back to the first record. Why would you stop less than halfway?
Nothing will erase the original sin, but Israel can abide by international law and allow the Palestinians to return to their homes and give them equal rights. We are not talking about ancient history. The Naqba was just 75 years ago.
https://www.axios.com/2024/03/14/us-settler-sanctions-west-bank
If they fully drop all support for Israel then multiple countries are likely to start war against Israel, possibly Iran and 2-3 others. That will cause the entire region to destabilize
And Jewish people are a monolith and all support Israel? Ironically this is closer to actual antisemitism than someone who hates Israel as a state because of their horrendous actions.
Again, as a monolith? Like "they" all hold this position? Hopefully you see the issue here. Many jewish people absolutely do not support Israel at all
This article discusses the issue. We have to assume that this recent bout of war crimes has made less jewish people supportive of Israel as well.
As the article says, they are not a monolith
So someone said, "why does Biden keep supporting Bibi?"
You said
But now it's
Which is thankfully no longer antisemitic but then now we're back to the original problem: how is that worth it for Biden?
But we just went over that. The Jewish community has a plurality of opinions, and even though it may be more likely that they support Israel in general, that doesn't mean they (e.g.) don't want a ceasefire or think that weapons sales should stop during a plausible genocide. Assuming otherwise is antisemitic, unless you have evidence?
As for the partner in the middle East I really think this point is bullshit. Why have a partner that's been committing war crimes for 5 straight months now? Well longer, but you know. Does the US actually have bad relations with Jordan, for example? Plus their influence in the region would grow substantially if they openly opposed the apartheid state (which basically all of the middle East doesn't like) and sent that money to someone else instead. I'm sorry I know this is the common wisdom but I really don't get it. "No influence whatsoever" is obviously taking it too far, but even the general point I find questionable
Doubt. Can you be an apartheid state and democratic at the same time? Can you approve illegal settlements in Palestinian territories while giving the Palestinians no say in this and truly be a democracy? Seems suspect at best.
The US also clearly does not agree with this. So I would say their values do not appear to be so close either.
I'm also not sure that siding with a country that is hated in the entire region is the best defense against Iran. Would that not push everyone else in the region to a more anti-US position? I'm sure the US would deter Iran from becoming a nuclear superpower just fine even without Israel's "support" (in quotation marks because I am not sure what exactly they do for the US specifically).
Well we agree here at least, lol. Not "ideal," yes quite. Ideally we wouldn't be starving children to death but boy aren't you happy the Iranians are slightly less bullish, maybe.
I think the US has good relations with Jordan though? Also I haven't heard about the recent thing with Iran.
But overall, I think it's questionable at best to support Israel right now because of "Iran" when you know full well that any weapons you send will be used to kill innocents within a few days. Why not support Israel against Iran, when relevant, but not support them when they're doing a genocide?
It seems so basic I feel like I'm going insane. Are these the people you share values with, seriously? Yeah you're a monster but the enemy of my enemy is my friend and all that.
The US seems to be changing tack on this and my only complaint is that it didn't happen months ago. Too many people have died and too much suffering has taken place. Israel deserves to be a pariah state
Meanwhile, Jews in America be like:
Please, please put your mask back on
Jews are not Israel. Israel is not Jews. Stop being a Zionist freak. No one cares what the makeup of the US is. Jews aren't supposed to support genocide, so if anything, there being many Jews in the US should mean Netty's behavior should be even less agreeable.
Jews "aren't supposed" to support or oppose anything as a monolith. That's just racial essentialism.
Pretty sure plenty of Jews preach against genocide... Or are you saying Jews are OK with genocide as a religion?
Either way ... very dumb.
I'm not collecting all Jewry and describing what they do or do not believe, for one! I'm saying that being Jewish isn't only about participating in a religion. And I'm also saying, which underlines my previous points, not all Jews think the same or believe the same thing.
Are you Jewish? Are you Palestinian?
To disagree with the basic point that all people, regardless of classification, don't believe one single thing is ridiculous. To what are you even trying to retort?
There’s a difference between believing in Israel as a state and believing that Israel is doing the right thing politically.
I don’t think you are arguing in good faith.
Anytime there is an argument that begins "everyone believes X" you are wrong right out of the gate. I'd imagine that if you were to poll Jews, MANY of them would support Israel, but there is no way possible each and every one would. Not all Americans support the American government, so why would Israel be any different?
I disagree actually, at least for the US. American Jews tend to be way more liberal than Israelis. I think the largest group of supporters would actually be Christians because of the fucking nutty evangelicals.
Or among Christian evangelicals, actually.
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2013/10/03/more-white-evangelicals-than-american-jews-say-god-gave-israel-to-the-jewish-people/
Not only that, most Christian groups seem to back it, evangelical or not.
That makes logical sense to me.
If I understand correctly, you're noting that the Jewish people in America lean supportive of Israel and because they comprise a larger population pool than the vehemently strong pro-Palestinians, Biden must then carefully toe the line between the two groups to court the largest % of votes to ensure the far-worse guy doesn't get in power?
"ironically" it's actually Christian far right nationalist evangelicals (a bunch of self contradicting terms if you ask me) who support Israel most in USA, not Jews living in USA (who often left or refused to move there for a reason!).