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this post was submitted on 22 Mar 2024
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These are not the same thing, at all
I think a more apt comparison is if you're renting out a place where every light switch is three-way with one switch near the light it controls and another in a closet with all the other light switches. You can control the ones in the closet for free, but the ones in a reasonable location are pay-per-use. The problem isn't that the features aren't available for free. It's that they poured resources into deliberately making things worse, then they charge you to undo that. Literally creating negative value.
Except I'm playing the game right now and these "deliberately made worse" elements have not once inconvenienced me in 20 hours.
You are all crying about nothing.
I have no interest in this game, so I wouldn't know how it actually affects gameplay. But do you not agree that this is shitty business practice? You have a game. Sell the game. If you want microtransactions, then produce extra art or something and sell that. You can even make the case that separating out parts of the game into various DLCs on launch is acceptable. You're at least charging for something of value that you created.
Implementing anti-cheat costs resources and makes the end result strictly worse. Now you want people to pay you to undo that? That's creating negative value. We want the economy to run on people creating positive value.
How.
I'm playing the game right now moron, you don't have to spend a single dime for any of the things you spend money on. It is pay to play faster, cry more about it. Your experience isn't tarnished because someone else spent more money on the game than you.
The fact that the MTX exists in the first place is just predatory. It doesn’t matter if it’s optional.
Don’t forget that things got this bad to begin with because everyone kept defending early MTX with the same excuse. These companies are always trying to push shit. Give them an excuse and they’ll run with it.
The problem that everyone seems to be missing with this "slippery slope" bullshit is that you all acknowledge that there are MTX systems worse than this one. That worse one likely being P2W MTX, because that is undeniably the worst form.
The RE4 remake literally had P2W. You could buy the weapon upgrade items for real money. DD2s MTX are in no way P2W.
So to organize the factors I've presented as they pertain to the discussion, plainly:
Everyone wants to avoid P2W because it's a bad sign for games. P2W is the reason why gatcha is the way that it is.
The Resident Evil 4 remake (oh you know, Capcoms biggest franchise) had a P2W system (that thing we just established as being the worst form of MTX).
DD2 has an MTX system so functionally worthless that I'm about to beat the game and the only reason I've even considered spending money is because I'm lazy. You actually get more out of spending your money on gatcha games (on literal fucking P2W scams).
We reach this conversation, where you're suggesting that "It'S a SlIpPeRy SlOpE".
I cannot fully express through words how genuinely stupid it is to be picking this game to cry about how bad microtransactions are. Genuinely, this is some of the dumbest shit I've seen from gamers. In your analogy, we already reached the bottom of the slope and the people fucking cheered for it.
Yeah there are worse MTX systems out there. I think that makes a pretty good case for calling out bullshit when you see it no matter how you see it. If a company sees people accepting it, they'll push it further. Therefore I'd say there's a pretty good point in complaining about DD2.
RE4 having shitty monetization doesn't make DD2's monetization not bad. Both can be bad, this isn't a mutually exclusive thing.
DD2's MTX issue is still bad regardless of worse things being out there.
Again, call it out early. So that, if they made another DD game then they don't try to push it further. Like you said it's already bad for RE4. So if there's no push back for DD2 then don't be surprised if the next DD game has something worse. Call it out before it gets all fucked up, you know? Don't just go "Oh but other game bad so this one is actually ok!".
DD2's MTX system is basically preying on people with poor impulse control. You might see it as useless but you can bet there's people out there that'll buy that shit even if they don't need it.
Yeah that's because it is a slippery slope. We didn't get to this point just like that did we? It started out small, with companies slowly pushing things to see how far they could go. Turns out, gamers are largely a masochistic lot that just let it roll in. Ball started rolling and here we are.
In this case we're seeing Capcom start out small by pushing an MTX to a specific series that seems small in comparison to other systems. Just because they could do P2W to RE doesn't necessarily mean they can get away with it in DD2, difference audiences and other factors. Making it small in comparison also has the benefit of getting some people to react like you're doing, rolling over and giving up because "Oh we're already at the bottom."
Yes, we already have P2W in some games. But I don't think that necessarily means that were are absolute rock bottom. Companies still give treat franchises with some level of individuality. While they might do something with one series, like MTX with RE4, they might think twice about trying it with another series if it gets push-back. Especially if that series is a big deal for them. That's why capcom doesn't have P2W in all of their games.
There's still a chance to keep bullshit out of stuff that hasn't yet been coated in it. So yeah I think it's pretty worth to make a point about it. It's certainly better than giving up and going "Guys things are already bad therefore it's stupid to try and change things for the better". If you want to roll over then go for it. Just don't try to bring other people down with that defeatist bullshit. Like what's the point of your reply? To say that things are bad so we shouldn't try to push people to do better?
You do not understand what you're talking about. You very clearly do not understand what I said.
I'm done with this conversation.
Nice cop out. I think I’ll give it a 9/10.
I've elaborated. I've explicitly detailed how you're wrong, and you turned around and literally said exactly what I said you would. "BuT iT iS a SlIpPeRy SlOpE".
It isn't. You just haven't been paying attention.
Yes, that's because it is a slippery slope. You haven't elaborated on how it isn't beyond "BuT oThEr GaMeS"
Fact is, it is a slippery slope. I've explained how but you didn't seem to get it. So let me explain it again for you.
Yes P2W exists. But that's not the slippery slope.
The slippery slope is how MTX is introduced to games/series. They often don't come out of the gate fully stocked with P2W bullshit.
A series often starts by putting it's best foot forward so as to not immediately piss everyone off. Then as things progress. So, a series gets new games or a live service starts to establish itself that's when the monetization starts to creep in. The Devs/Pubs start to push the envelope to see what they can get away with and keep going. That's the slippery slope.
Gacha is a bit of an exception, because Gacha is straight up defined by it's gambling mechanics. The whole thing is about replicating the gachapon machine experience.
For DD2 it's the shit it has now. But DD3 may be worse if they see their monetization was effective and that people are willing to buy that shit. For DD3 they may include the same monetization but make the items much harder to obtain, making more of a push to pay for it.
That's the slippery slope.
That's the whole point of complaining. To identify a problem before it becomes too bad.
Yes, other games might have P2W, but that doesn't necessarily mean that there's no point in complaining because it's a per-game/series thing.
If it were exactly as you described then every game would just be coming out with P2W. DD2 would be worse than it is because fuck it other games have P2W, so why not DD2 or literally every other game. Since your logic is that we’re at the bottom already because P2W exists.
But that's not how it is, is it?
What is happening is that games/series undergo a decline. Start off small, ease people in.
A relatively common tactic now is to do something like this: Increase the cost of something from 100 to 1000. Let people get angry. Then "Apologise" and dial it back to 500. That way people get their "We did it reddit / OMG company really listens to the players!" moment while also not realizing they're still worse off.
I know what's going on. I actually pay attention and I've noticed the patterns as to how this shit goes down.
Do you want to know why I know you don't understand a thing I've said? Why I know you're just talking out of your ass?
Dragon's Dogma 1 had the exact same monetization scheme, minus fast travel. Everything you could buy on the store was easy to earn in game (it is the exact same way in Dragon's Dogma 2). Dragon's Dogma 1 was also a failure in Western markets.
It was, however, a success in Japanese markets! Do you know what else is very common in Asian (that includes Japanese) video game markets? That's right, aggressive microtransactions.
So tell me, if the game was a success in Japanese markets and had this monetization scheme: why would it not have a more aggressive microtransaction scheme for the second game if what you're saying is to be believed?
The game is very fun and not once did I think of paying anything beyond 3 dollars on MTX, and that was because I'm impatient. It literally would have been a waste of money, as the game opens up every fast travel point you would need in the post game. It also gives you nigh infinite fast travel items. There is no drop in quality for the game.
You can claim you "pay attention" all you want, but all you've done is prove how little you understand what you're talking about.
Yes, there are bad MTX models. CAPCOM literally has worse models, RE4 remake, Monster Hunter Rise and World. Weird how you people weren't crying about those but fixated on DD2, despite it being so fucking benign by comparison.
The MTX in DD1 were taken out of the game on later releases. Only the original 360 and PS3 releases had them. So as a matter of fact things improved for DD1 before getting worse again for DD2. Likely because the MTX weren't successful enough to consider for the re-release. After all, why else would they not have them in a later release.
A game being successful doesn't necessarily mean the MTX are also successful. Companies can see where the money is coming from. If they see that the game is selling loads but the MTX isn't selling much. They'll probably not bother to put the effort into the MTX for a later title or at least until they think that things have changed and people may be more receptive. Which is likely what we're seeing here. As above, they took out the MTX for the later releases/DD:DA. Possibly because the MTX in the original release wasn't all that successful. It's been a hot few moments since then so they're trying it again for DD2. That's why DD2 isn't worse.
Not being personally affected by it doesn't really change how good/bad the MTX is. It's predatory on those with poor impulse control.
It doesn't matter how much items the game gives to you. The MTX just shouldn't be in the game as a matter of principle.
It's a fucking £65/$70 single player game. Why are you defending this shit?
You don't seem to understand. Considering you forgot about the fact that Dark Arisen doesn't have those MTXs and the implications that brings.
I'm defending it because of disingenuous trogs like you trying to suggest that it's somehow harming the quality of the game by having a neutered redundant MTX system.
I'm defending it because you're trying to suggest that them removing MTX from an already failed title is anything but proof CAPCOM wasn't interested in putting any investment in the franchise. That is the only implication worth noting. DD1 was a failed title, DD2 may not have been.
I'm defending it because to call this predatory is like calling a Shih Tzu a predator.
And finally, I'm defending it because microtransactions aren't as bad as you're making them out to be. Some of the best games to exist; exist because of the microtransactions that are in them.
I wholeheartedly support microtransaction systems like this, I think the devs have done an incredible job with the game and I'm almost tempted to buy some of these literally worthless microtransactions simply as a fuck you to all the virtue signalling losers fixating on the game.
Microtransactions do harm the quality of a game. Especially a fucking $70 single player game.
Again, it's full priced. DD2 does not need microtransactions.
They were interested enough in doing a re-release. If you're interested enough in doing that then you would also be interested enough in slipping in those MTX if they were successful otherwise you'd be missing out on cash. Cash being the one thing companies love the most and would not think twice about getting more. It'd be fucking stupid for them to leave successful MTX out of a game like that.
On the topic of interest, don't forget as well that DD2 would have come sooner if it weren't for the director choosing to go for DMC V first.
Source: https://www.gameinformer.com/2019/02/07/capcom-given-choice-to-make-dragons-dogma-2-decided-on-devil-may-cry-5-first
So it's not exactly a complete lack of interest. Otherwise the DD2 wouldn't have come at all.
So again, no, the MTX was likely left out of DA because it just wasn't successful enough to warrant the time to put it in.
It is predatory.
Again, there's no reason for it to be in there.
They're not starved for cash.
It's a 70$ game so fat stacks going their way.
I'd bet my cock and balls that the MTX is just lining pockets as MTX often does.
Except they are. Were you not around back before MTX kicked off? Back when you could just get shit by playing the game normally without having to bust out your wallet for an extra character or a shiny .png When MTX become the main focus games suffer.
"MUH FAVORITE GAME! NO CRITICIZE!"
Kind of knew that the argument was going in that direction. No one in their right mind defends something that has no benefit to themselves like this.
MTX can't be bad because then that would be something against your favorite games and your favorite games can't possibly be bad, right?
Other than that, why don't you go and list off some of those games because I think there may be a pattern. Other than "Muh games".
Also, some of the best games ever exist do so without needing micro-transactions. Shit, games survived without them for decades before the internet allowed for MTX to exist.
Almost like MTX aren't actually needed and a good product will make good money on it's own merit.
There's also a better way to further monetize a game post-release. It's called releasing expansions. You know, like what Elden Ring is about to come out. A decent to good sized chunk of content that (hopefully) has had a good amount of care and attention put into it. Rather than selling a fucking JPEG for £15 and calling it a day, selling something that you would have unlocked in a better game by just being good at the game or just preying on people with poor impulse control.
Stockholm syndrome is some wack shit, I tell ya.
Bro, you do realize you can enjoy a game and at the same time recognize any problems it has, right? Enjoying a game does not mean you're obliged in any way to blindly defend a game, downplay it's issues and only talk good about it.
There's just no reason for a full priced game by a cash strapped, big ass AAA publishing company, to have micro-transactions.
They're not a cash starved indie company. But even while Indie games having MTX is a little more understandable, it's still a bit dubious even there.
Ah yes, waste your own money and let a group of people live rent free in your head. Pretty good way to spite them. While they're sat there not wasting their money, you're just throwing yours away. They'll literally won't know what hit them. Probably because they'll have no idea you're doing it. But still, you go dude. Burn that money! By the way, ever heard of the phrase "Cutting off your nose just to spite your face"?
🤷♂️ I can fast travel to two extra spots now buddy. I love the game and those 6 bucks are well spent. Glad to send my positive feedback to CAPCOM.
Local man cannot handle favourite game being criticised. Burns own money in protest.
Local sealion, tilting at micro windmills.
You're right, but I just wonder where it will end up. Everything has a beginning.
This is the exact same monetization that Devil May Cry 5 had in that it is practically non-existent. You can earn everything in game, you do not have to spend money.
I'm glad you're not bothered by microtransactions. I personally don't like them, and I never buy games with anything more then cosmetic microtramsactions. But we all have that line in the sand we won't cross, this is one of mine.