106
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 10 Apr 2024
106 points (87.3% liked)
World News
38936 readers
2305 users here now
A community for discussing events around the World
Rules:
-
Rule 1: posts have the following requirements:
- Post news articles only
- Video links are NOT articles and will be removed.
- Title must match the article headline
- Not United States Internal News
- Recent (Past 30 Days)
- Screenshots/links to other social media sites (Twitter/X/Facebook/Youtube/reddit, etc.) are explicitly forbidden, as are link shorteners.
-
Rule 2: Do not copy the entire article into your post. The key points in 1-2 paragraphs is allowed (even encouraged!), but large segments of articles posted in the body will result in the post being removed. If you have to stop and think "Is this fair use?", it probably isn't. Archive links, especially the ones created on link submission, are absolutely allowed but those that avoid paywalls are not.
-
Rule 3: Opinions articles, or Articles based on misinformation/propaganda may be removed. Sources that have a Low or Very Low factual reporting rating or MBFC Credibility Rating may be removed.
-
Rule 4: Posts or comments that are homophobic, transphobic, racist, sexist, anti-religious, or ableist will be removed. “Ironic” prejudice is just prejudiced.
-
Posts and comments must abide by the lemmy.world terms of service UPDATED AS OF 10/19
-
Rule 5: Keep it civil. It's OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It's NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.
-
Rule 6: Memes, spam, other low effort posting, reposts, misinformation, advocating violence, off-topic, trolling, offensive, regarding the moderators or meta in content may be removed at any time.
-
Rule 7: We didn't USED to need a rule about how many posts one could make in a day, then someone posted NINETEEN articles in a single day. Not comments, FULL ARTICLES. If you're posting more than say, 10 or so, consider going outside and touching grass. We reserve the right to limit over-posting so a single user does not dominate the front page.
We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.
All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.
Lemmy World Partners
News !news@lemmy.world
Politics !politics@lemmy.world
World Politics !globalpolitics@lemmy.world
Recommendations
For Firefox users, there is media bias / propaganda / fact check plugin.
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/media-bias-fact-check/
- Consider including the article’s mediabiasfactcheck.com/ link
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
Article is way better than the headline...
Hamas just hasn't been taking civilian noncombatants as hostages like Israel has been doing.
Most hostages are combatants, and that doesn't meet the details for this requirement
So...
Hamas gets hostages returned that are women, children, and elderly, all noncombatants.
They get them back into Gaza where there's no food and no zones safe from Israeli attacks...
And Israeli gets back some of their boots on the ground war criminals so they can go right back to genocide?
If you were trying to be sarcastic use a "/s", otherwise people will think that was a serious comment.
And I was explaining how combatants and noncombatants are different...
One are victims of genocide, and the others are literally actively committing a genocide.
...
The "later phases" is exchanging combatants...
And they're willing to do that. Just not for noncombatants.
It's very simple, I'm not sure how to put any plainer.
You are assuming they are treated well in israeli prison. Israel heavily tortures hostages, frequently to death but also heavy bodily harm
Israel also starves their hostages. Being in Gaza is an upgrade to that.
Can you please cite in your article the relevant section that supports:
Because I was not able to find such a statement, and I'm trying to parse editorialization from fact on this very serious subject.
Israel/OPT: Horrifying cases of torture and degrading treatment of Palestinian detainees amid spike in arbitrary arrests
This similarly does not support your original assertion, from your original article:
Is there a reason you choose to embellish (and directly substitute words in the article for your own personal opinion) instead of accurately convey what the article says?
Me: israel tortures prisoners to death
You: no israel tortures prisoners to death
???
This is flagrantly misrepresenting what this discussion is about as I've directly quoted. This is not conducive to informative discussion, and a disservice to this sub.
"You are misrepresenting the discussion by linking evidence and proving me wrong."
Totally untrue
Where are Hamas getting them?
Like, do you think this is an actual war where both sides attack each other's territories?
Seriously, at what point in the last six months would Hamas have captured non combatants?
I am not here to give Israel a W, but Hamas still has a number of civilian captives from the original October 7 attack. Just not as many surviving as was assumed.
According to Israel's own figures, there are 90 or so living hostages and 30 or so bodies still held by Hamas IIRC. Apparently most of the 90 survivors are non-civilians, based on what Hamas is saying, but some of them still are.
But not according to anyone else's...
Israel has been flattening the entire area, they can't keep track of how many they kill, regardless of what country they're from.
But the article OP linked even says there aren't 40 noncombatants left....
I'm not sure what you're not understanding about this.
Or why you're listening to Israel still
Right, I acknowledged that. It's just that no one knows who specifically is counted in the alive vs dead hostage statistics. It wouldn't surprise me if Israel purposefully set a number of civilians that they knew had likely already died, knowing that Hamas would not be able to comply with the request, to justify continuing the conflict.
Therein lies the problem.
I would say take it with a grain of salt, but there's enough international scrutiny that I would say the list of missing is probably reliable enough. People in Israel are still protesting the Israeli government about that very frequently. Not everyone missing from October 7th has been returned, alive or dead. Many probably buried beneath rubble from IDF attacks, to be honest, since several were already confirmed killed by "friendly" fire.
Edit: to add, it is worth noting that Hamas is not the only group that participated in Oct 7 and took hostages. There are likely other hostages that they cannot account for because they were taken by other groups.
The hostages were taken on October 7th of last year. Try to keepup.
And they've been repeatedly bombed for the past several months, try to keep up.
I have...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_prisoner_exchange
Again, your own article says CNN knows there aren't 40 hostages left that aren't noncombatants.
Israel keeps taking civilians hostage, so they have enough.
Since 10/7 the only Israelis Hamas interacts with are combatants. They literally don't have enough hostages left for this deal, which is likely how the deal arrived at that number.
It's something that literally is impossible to comply with, and Israel gets to blame Hamas.
This ain't complicated bub. Your own source agrees with me.
You should read it
Oh, it's true alright:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/11/israel-opt-horrifying-cases-of-torture-and-degrading-treatment-of-palestinian-detainees-amid-spike-in-arbitrary-arrests/
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67600015
You only addressed half the statement. They are not saying that Israel doesn't take civilian hostages. They are questioning the claim that Hamas doesn't take civilian hostages. Follow the thread please.
Is there any evidence that Hamas has taken new hostages since October 7th? Because AFAIK there isn't.
A temporal attribute has not been included in this statement:
But you have added a temporal qualifier:
I think maybe that's where the disconnect is? I don't know. I don't know who or what you're arguing against.
No you are changing the statement yourself. The statement is
Israel is widely kidnapping mostly innocent civilians whereas Hamas very much targeted military for kidnapping.
This is as obvious as the lower than 2/3 civilian casualty rate for Hamas whereas israel has a far higher civilian casualty rate.
Sources? Do I even want your sources at this point....last time I asked for evidence you gave me a verbal statement by the prime minister and that was good enough in your book. You really don't need much convincing when the evidence aligns with your bias, do you?
Last time you got a source you denied reality and pretended that "no that doesn't count". I'm not sure why you are bringing this up it only makes you look bad.
Israel social security data reveals true picture of Oct 7 deaths
I'm realizing that either your intentionally ignoring what I'm saying or English is not your first language.
Your standard of evidence was a quote by Benjamin Netanyahu
For honest people one off quotes do not constitute evidence.
So yes: I reject your standard for proof because it is very low
The temporal qualifier is inherent in the grammar of the statement. Perhaps you didn't notice it?
In English, the present perfect continuous has/hasn't been taking implies a frequent and repeated action since a fixed time in the past - in this case, presumably, the start of the current conflict until now.
Since Hamas only took civilian hostages on one occasion, i.e. October 7th, and not again since, it is not true to say that Hamas "has been taking hostages". They took hostages. Once.
Israel, on the other hand, have been taking Palestinian civilians captive, repeatedly, since October 7th. That's the difference.
You're inferring the start point for the perfect continuous and assigning Oct 7; I'm assigning the start point to be the overall conflict in a broader context. I'm being charitable. I might be wrong, but I can't read OPs mind so I'm being charitable.
In that case, they would have used the present simple, "Hamas don't take hostages", but they didn't.
I think you simply misunderstood the original statement.
I could be wrong. I'm happy to take the L. Not a hill I want to die on.