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Miracle cures (mander.xyz)

submitted 5 months ago by fossilesque@mander.xyz to c/science_memes@mander.xyz

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[-] canihasaccount@lemmy.world 5 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Not true:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0165032714003620

https://www.cghjournal.org/article/S1542-3565%2806%2900800-7/fulltext

I found more, too.

Edit: I have no skin in this game. I don't take turmeric and won't ever because of the risk of lead. I'm just pointing out that the meme is inaccurate. The person who replied to me pointed out some flaws in the first study (not the second), but none of the flaws mentioned makes the meme accurate. Even the shitty first study I linked found a significant condition difference in its primary endpoint at 8 weeks. Yeah, it's got flaws (which the second doesn't), but a successful trial with heavy limitations and conflicts of interest is nonetheless a successful trial, making this meme inaccurate. The second study I linked is stronger.

Also, the limitations in the first trial are standard for many clinical trials. For example:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/jsr.12201

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0924977X14001266

I could list 100 more with the same limitations of the first study I linked above. High dropout, small sample sizes, funding by an industry with a conflict of interest etc. are standard for clinical trial studies.

[-] ForgotAboutDre@lemmy.world 10 points 5 months ago

This study is absolutely terrible.

The study found no differences in the first four weeks. More than 10% dropped out during the study. The study was too small a sample to draw any serious conclusions from. The conclusions they did draw from were a subsample of people they declared treatment resistant. They even say in the paper their isn’t enough data to suggest their was any benefit, just not forcefully enough. Just enough to make low information readers think the study was successful.

This study was done in response to two other studies. One which showed no benefit another that suggested a benefit, but the study lacked a control group. So no meaningful conclusion could be drawn.

Finally the researchers were funded by ‘health supplement’ groups.

[-] canihasaccount@lemmy.world -4 points 5 months ago

I'm not saying the study is good, just that the meme isn't true.

Also, you can level almost every single one of those criticisms against many studies for SSRIs and they'd hit just as hard. The exception being sample size.

[-] ForgotAboutDre@lemmy.world 3 points 5 months ago

The evidence is much better for SSRI, and it isn’t great, but the referred paper even points out that the curriculum wasn’t as effective as an SSRI.

The meme remains true, no proper or valid studies exist. The existence of a paper doesn’t prove that, the paper is self addresses it wasn’t a proper study. They just did it in a dishonest way.

[-] canihasaccount@lemmy.world -1 points 5 months ago

Why are you completely ignoring the second paper I linked, which doesn't suffer from any of the limitations you mentioned?

The meme says no trial was successful. Any trial with any small difference is a successful trial.

[-] ForgotAboutDre@lemmy.world 0 points 5 months ago

I didnt bother reading the second since the first was blatantly misleading.

The second looks like they’re trying to p hack hack their way to a result.

They also have more relapses in the curicumin group in the second 6 month period than the control group. They also have enough people leaving the control group to cause a shift in their p value to make their results insignificant.

The second papers findings are weak and they aren’t very robust.

[-] canihasaccount@lemmy.world 1 points 5 months ago

Sorry, but this makes clear that you aren't in science. You should avoid trying to shit on studies if you don't know how to interpret them. Both of the things you mentioned actually support the existence of a true effect.

First, if the treatment has an effect, you would expect a greater rate of relapse after the treatment is removed, provided that it treats a more final pathway rather than the cause: People in the placebo group have already been relapsing at the typical rate, and people receiving treatment--whose disease has been ramping up behind the dam of a medication preventing it from showing--are then expected to relapse at a higher rate after treatment is removed. The second sixth-month period was after cessation of the curcumin or place; it was a follow-up for treatment-as-usual.

Second, people drop out of a study nonrandomly for two main reasons: side effects and perceived lack of treatment efficacy. The placebo doesn't have side effects, so when you have a greater rate of dropout in your placebo group, that implies the perceived treatment efficacy was lower. In other words, the worst placebo participants are likely the extra dropouts in that group, and including them would not only provide more degrees of freedom, it would theoretically strengthen the effect.

This is basic clinical trials research knowledge.

Again, I have no skin in the game here. I don't take curcumin, nor would I ever. I do care about accurate depictions of research. I'm a STEM professor at an R1 with three active federal grants funding my research. The meme is inaccurate.