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Israel says ‘highly likely’ its troops killed Turkish-American activist
(www.theguardian.com)
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this post was submitted on 10 Sep 2024
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Make no mistake - Trump would do that and more.
If both parties are for it, how can anyone be against it?
The country is more than a president.
The biggest change isn't going to come from the top, it's going to come from the bottom. Support local and state reps that share your values, they're far more likely to get elected than a federal position, and have a much more direct impact on peoples daily lives (and ability to support reps at the federal level).
Yeah, but what if I'm only politically aware for half a year every 4 years? Voting for the president is all I can do! /s
I live near the bottom, and I see a lot of anti Palestinian stuff, mostly pretending the Palestinians do not exist, with a random anti-Semitic accusation thrown it.
And it’s not just the democrats, I see this in many western nations. It’s a stain on many parties who speak many languages.
If the killings stopped today , this would be only a black mark against those involved. Something to get angry about by many. Accusing fingers could be pointed. Perhaps even reevaluation by some.
But we are only a quarter through the genocide. This will last months or years more. Many will be killed in the future. So this is an active crime scene. Those that will have fingers pointed at later are still doing harm now, and will do harm in the future.
Not just the high level politicians, but in all levels of each country. There is collective guilt , and that is not ended either
Ah, so might as well just revel in it instead of doing something to make the world a better place in the mean time.
Stop focusing so much on what you can't change, and how horrible it is for you, and focus on what you can.
Yet, there are articles specifically about Trump wanting Russia to win. Should we stop those articles because a country is more than the president?
The sad truth is, give us someone who does. Who stands a chance. Then and only then will that discussion matter. Till then, not making things abjectly worse is sadly the best option. And we can push to improve from there. As opposed to trying to push to improve from a worse position in 4 years time.
First they came for the Palestinians and I said nothing, because I didn't want to ruin anyone's electoral chances.
First of all its ghoulishly disingenuous for you to conflate providing arms. Which is wrong I'm not justifying that. To actually killing people. That's straight up empty virtue signaling and not solving or convincing anyone of anything.
I asked who stands a chance. And you quoted it without even answering it. Useless. Right now the only viable option other than R or D in the presidential campaign is a widespread general uprising. Which I'm all for. If you got one let's go kiddo. But I got news for you. If you don't. What you're doing is empty virtue signaling that only helps the worst people around. And makes enemies of possible allies. Which is how I know your words are empty.
It is ghoulishly disingenuous to suggest that a nation making their 500th shipment of child-exploding munitions to a genocidal warlord is somehow less culpable.
Biden is like a negligent parent, letting his mentally disturbed 14-year-old have access to the family assault rifle. Maybe after the first shooting he could havd a credible defense. But by now Netanyahu is on his 2000th school shooting, and Biden is still providing weapons.
Biden might as well be shooting those Palestinian children himself, the blood is on his hands.
No it isn't. I'm not saying it's right. I'll criticize it all the time. American companies like IBM and Dow Chemical helped facilitate the Nazis genocide. They were not charged for murder or treated as murderers. Despite knowing exactly what their products were being used for. And the fact that please uses would generally not be considered Justified or acceptable. Only profitable. Sending arms to Israel right now especially is a horrible idea they're current leadership are genocytomaniacs. But there is legitimate reason to arm Israel historically speaking I'm not saying that I agree with it. But just saying that there is some acceptability even so the situation is very different on many fronts.
Perhaps this is the crux of our disagreement, because I think it is obvious that IBM, Dow, et al. should have been prosecuted for their role in the holocaust.
Our modern would would be much better off if these evil companies had faced justice, instead of allowing them to normalize their inhumanity.
Sadly our ancestors did not eradicate fascism, they just postponed it. We should learn from their weakness and their mistakes as we wage our modern fight against fascism.
They should have been prosecuted at the very least. Realistically capitalism should be rained in as a whole. Because it is their duty to do such things in similar cases. But there is a difference. But that doesn't change facts. They didn't commit genocide. They enabled it. Which is bad and a crime unto itself. But it's different which is why we tack The extra word onto it. So no our disagreement comes from the fact that so many people want to imply that aiding and abetting or enabling genocide is the exact same thing as having done it yourself. It's not and never has been and never will be.
I think you're splitting hairs here.
The difference between "aiding and abetting" and "comitting" are vanishingly small. Both crimes deserve the most severe condemnation, both crimes deserve the most severe punishment.
Hey that's your opinion and your welcome to it. It's not supported by facts evidence or reality. But that's never stopped anyone.
Inevitably. Every single time with people like you this is always what it comes down to. Not a genuine discussion or anything even resembling. Someone agrees with you 99%. But they don't grind the same pet axe that you grind. Or feel the same need to misrepresent facts as you do. All of a sudden you feel this deep urge. A need to tell someone whose Family actually survived genocide at the hands of the United States what genocide is. What I said was not to defend the United states. It was to not downplay what genocide is. The United States plenty guilty of genocide elsewhere. They're not committing genocide in this case they are enabling it. And that's horrible wrong should be charged prosecuted etc etc etc etc etc. It's not genocide.
That's doesn't rebut anything I said. But it is what I expect from leninists. Especially someone who would proudly associate with a monster-like Stalin. A wall of text that has nothing to do with anything.
I did accidentally respond to the wrong comment. It was in response to when you said:
This is not analogous to a murder case. When it comes to International and US Law, the US is complicit in the genocide because we are actively providing the arms being used for said genocide.
Also, I'm not a leninist nor a stalinist.
I'm a leftist and I'm very anti-authoritian. I even explicitly state that in my profile. The name is just an edgy pun.
You do know that if you provide a weapon with the knowledge that the person will use it to kill someone, you can get convicted for being an accessory to that murder, which entails the same criminal punishment?
So for normal crime it is absolutely considered to be on the same level
Yes but accessory to murder is different. That's why it's called accessory to murder. IBM and Dow Chemical supplied Nazi Germany knowing full well exactly what Germany was going to use their products for. They weren't charged with murder. Unfortunately they weren't even charged with accessory to murder. They should have been charged with something.
They're actually are legitimate reasons to send arms to israel. The problem is that while those legitimate reasons do exist. The fact that the current leadership especially. But pretty much all leadership of Israel has been bigoted and genocidal it conflicts heavily. But again it isn't some black and white situation as people want to make it out to be. I wish it were.
The people who collect the most corporate PAC money, obviously. So these are the only people it is reasonable to support.
False. PAC money can't overcome first past the post and the Electoral college. Even if we gave a third party candidate 100% of the pack money. They wouldn't win. Because of how the system works.
Parties have changed in the past. It's not impossible. We used to have a Whig party, for example.
But there have always largely been two main parties. The system of the Electoral College and first pass the post have always seen to that. The names change. But the internals look a lot more I like them people would like to admit.
They will not exist so long as you vote for "lesser evil" genociders. Why would there be? You still vote for them! They don't need to listen to you at all and will gladly continue the project that is in their overall material interest in supporting Israel. You show up in their databases as, "Likely Democratic voter" and so they send some volunteers to try to get you to vote and they ask you for money. That is how you are thought of, and I mean this literally. That is how they curate and use their information. The rest is PR for how to ensure you don't take these looney anti-genociders too seriously.
There is no "push from there" without leverage. If they don't do what you want, what are you going to do? With what power? If you mske a threat, why is it credible? We are kept docile and ineffective through electoral illogic that serves the interests of the existing political class and cannot imagine gaining or wielding power in any practical way.
I'll tell you same as I told them. Unless you have a populist General uprising in your pocket. Then your rhetoric is empty. I'm 100% ready for a popular general non-leninist uprising. Let's go. But I don't have time or bandwidth for empty holier than thou virtue signaling. I actually want things to not get worse and possibly even make them better. Not enable the worst people among us.
Due to the very real and observable ratchet effect, the outcome of your strategy is that things actually get worse… just slightly slower than they otherwise would. Voting for the “lesser of two evils” will never, ever make things better. You need to take a risk and vote for a non-evil to even have a shot at making things actually better.
I disagree. I'm not going to say the ratchet effect doesn't exist. But I'm going to say that it's not a major impactor. If you've been alive over the last near 50 years and I have. You will have noticed a lot of change that didn't come about due to the ratchet effect. And a lot of it dies back specifically to that fascist Reagan. His election and time in office absolutely put the Democratic Party in heavy disarray. To the point where honestly even today their still trying to figure out what works.
And something to remember ratchets can go both ways. I think it's been so long since people really remember being united voting for democrats. And especially with the Advent of social media and the internet it's become far more easier to divide the left than ever. And we already self-divided considerably before. But if we actually had some solidarity we could flick the switch and Ratchet back the other way.
How can you have been alive that long and not noticed the ratchet effect? It specifically increased with Reagan, who put in a bunch of neoliberal policies that Democrats still haven't rolled back all these years later.
And unfortunately the ratchet can't go the other way because it's not in the material interest of the higher up Democrats to help regular people. That media that divides people is done on purpose by the exact same interests that own our politicians.
So, the new deal etc didn't happen. Gotcha.
It can and does happen. But unfortunately it's very slow moving. Creeping over generations. Which makes it nearly impossible to see by many. Especially younger people who've only known the current situation. The last Peak being back in the silent generation's lifetime. It happens and we have made progress and will make progress. Especially if we can stop finding scapegoats to blame for why things won't work. And start working together again showing solidarity like they did back then
Not here to shit on your opinions, but populist upswell is what gave us the 2016 results. It just happened to be right wing populism.
And if you mean a more spicy uprising, well that'll both make things worse and enable the worst amomg us.
Populist doesn't mean bad. But you are correct that it can go both ways. But that is also specifically why I specified non-leninist. Though maybe I should have also specified non-fascist as well. They're both two sides of the same coin.
But no. As you put it I was talking the "non spicy" kind generally.
Being "ready" means nothing, it is just a thought in your head. Praxis requires that you act. You aren't ready for an uprising if you aren't actually organizing towards one yourself. And I have yet to meet a successful revolutionary organizer that tries to sheepdog for literally genocidal Democrats.
I haven't advocated for "doing nothing", I have advocated against supporting genocide from both a moralizing and electorally strategic angle. I choose these angles because it is the language most people will understand and because the propaganda that I oppose in the process teaches people to give up leverage and cheerlead, which is literally disempowering.
If people want recommendations on something positive to do, I would recommend joining the Uncommitted Movement if you prefer electoralism. If you are interested in politics that also extends beyond electoralism, I would be happy to provide advice on any local groups and reading materials.
What is the logic for supporting 99% Hitler when you could actually choose to work against 99% Hitler and Hitler himself? This is genocide, not a marginal tax bracket you can lesser evil about. The systematic destruction of a people is as bad as it gets, generally speaking.
If you support this and tell other people to vote for it, you are complicit.