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AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH honk

For context Libs on Bsky are passing aroudn this fascists shithead's bullshit book "On Tyranny" as a manual for "resisting authoritarianism" THE CALL IS COMING FROM INSIDE THE HOUSE YOU LIBERAL SHITWIPES!

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[-] _pi@lemmy.ml 55 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

For all the complaints of "antisemitism" of the past several years, it's amazing how Snyder has been able to walk the double genocide tightrope and still be "in good standing".

My favorite question to ask people is, in which Soviet Republic did the ethnic majority become an ethnic minority as a result of the famine(s) of 1930-1933?

Everyone says Ukraine because they're dummies. It's Kazakhstan, and yet you don't see Westoids clammoring to woke genocide narratives on behalf of Kazakhs. Only Anne Applebaum does in deep psychotic NYT op-ed lore as she has to devise a good explanation of why her ideology is not the exact carbon copy of Putin's ideology with some labels moved around.

Even within Soviet Republics, it's super not clear cut what would constitute a genocide here. You have racism against different nationalities. Plenty of Ukrainians when I was growing up called Kazakhs, aziaty or churki and still do. The USSR itself was very anti-peasantry and anti pastoral/nomadic lifestyle.

If we consider the big evil Russian dictator theory both Stalin and Lenin are on record as saying Russian ethnic tendencies are actually the worst. In the history of evil Soviet dictators there are only 3 Russians: Lenin, Andropov and Gorbachev.

Lastly a lot of these fights typically rely on first mover advantage that's found in all pro-Western chauvinism. "We got to do it because we did it before the magical date when it's considered wrongbad." is literally the excuse used by the West for everything they want to condemn from genocide, to energy use, to national development. Even if there was an active evil Soviet plot to sedentarize the Kazahs and remove them from their traditional way of life, there is not a developed nation on earth that practically supports nomadic lifestyles.

It's honestly not a simple question, and in practice a question that people ask solely for political points. If we call/don't call these famines genocide won't actually get us to stop genocides and famines that are currently happening. It's just propaganda.

[-] urmums401k@hexbear.net 25 points 6 days ago

It's seriosly annoying, when people will only acknowledge a genocide to say 'communism bad', its like the fascist 'anti sex trafficking' panic-they dont actually care about the victims or want to stop it from happening again, and it's almost worse than a denial

[-] _pi@lemmy.ml 32 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

My favorite stuff to read in genocide studies is when Western academics shiv each other on political grounds.

Norman Naimark is an interesting case. He's a super right wing guy, Hoover Institution, literally Galician parents and all that. Wrote a book called Stalin's Genocides

He's unique because he posits that the definition of genocide should be broadened and one of this hobby horses (that I interestingly enough entertain and mildly agree with) is that kulaks became a targeted class. Which brings up some interesting points like, if I manufacture a class of people that are labeled as enemies, and I just slide those goalposts to be able to push more people into that class does that constitute a genocide? It's a very postmodern proposal to redefine genocide.

Ironically another right wing guy called Michael Ellman does not like Naimarks theory because:

"The liberal interpretation of genocide that Naimark favors is... in line with recent jurisprudence. However, he fails to point out the boomerang effect of such an interpretation. According to a recent book by a U.S. specialist on genocide... the massacres of some of the native Americans by European settlers, the Atlantic Slave Trade, the use of a nuclear bomb against Nagasaki...should all be considered genocides. This would make the United States founded on two genocides and guilty... of more... In view of this boomerang effect, my advice to Western governments is to stick to a strict constructionist interpretation of genocide. Hence, I disagree with Naimark’s wish to classify Stalin’s mass murders as genocide."

It would stain the credibility of the United States.....

Ironically, Snyder and Applebaum (like Naimark) point to the USSR's advocacy for current and specific definition of genocide as the reason that USSR actions don't fall into the legalistic criteria of genocide, they also do not see this potential for blowback. Ellman doesn't even acknowledge things in recent history that would fit the extended definition (which would effectively add all ethnic cleansing into the criterion) such as "Mexican Repatriation".

It's almost like this term is a political football in-as much as it is a descriptor of historic atrocity.

[-] GarbageShoot@hexbear.net 26 points 6 days ago

kulaks became a targeted class

Turns out communists target classes. Weren't they extremely explicit about this? And the pearl-clutching libs then say that "every domestic enemy of the state was called a kulak"

Or do you mean, like, they were all explicitly targeted with death as the only allowable outcome rather than the dissolution of there class? (a number of them were killed either way, of course)

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this post was submitted on 20 Nov 2024
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