Razor bumps can now get you kicked out of the marines. Black men will likely suffer the most : nottheonion

[-] Saik0Shinigami@lemmy.saik0.com 44 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

Yet another "anti-military" article from people who clearly don't understand the military.

Hi.. It's me again. Army Veteran. Showing up in the comments of another military article because there is clear and obvious reasons why this is happening that has nothing to do with Trump (Not sure why so many other commenters jump on this every time). Claiming that this is racist is crazy when the purpose and reason for it is innately to stop people from dying unnecessarily. If you think this is racism, I'd argue that it's not. I'd also argue that ignoring the medical problem can actually kill those you think you're protecting from "racism".

This is not new. While I was in (primarily under Obama) people with problematic beard hair would need to be medically evaluated. At one point I was evaluated as razor bumps kept coming up for a little while (cleared up eventually though). The primary reason for the military caring about it is because NBC masks need to fit particularly well in order for them to do their jobs. For those who don't know what NBC means, gas masks. Nothing sucks more than doing gas chamber training and getting a mask that doesn't fit well. Considering the current world capabilities, it would be a disaster to send a unit out and have them all get nailed with mustard gas and have just the "black" (quoting this because it's inaccurate, I saw many people need a profile over bad shaves. a plurality were actually black) people die because with hair, you can't get a good seal, and with the bumps, you can't get a good seal.

Now up to this point, I've said terms like "profile" and "medically evaluated", none of these things innately remove you from service unless it's extreme (or fails to clear up over significant time). The only thing moving forward is that if it doesn't clear up they want to medically discharge you from service. Here's the rub though, you can't have soldiers that can't put on NBC masks and keep them deployable. It's a basic core task. War is war, it's nasty. The headline that gets written in the worst case scenario is "Black soldiers die in mass NBC attack because mask seals don't work" is the alternative here. This consideration HAS to be addressed when you expect war to kick up (Iran, anyone?). This is a problem... And in my time, I've seen a handful (very few) people hide behind this condition to do less work than their peers, especially to dodge deployable statuses and NBC chamber training.

Lastly, if you read the article "The recent policy update under Brig. Gen. David R. Everly reversed a 2022 rule". This "rule" is very new and was likely found to harm wartime readiness after trying it out. The people getting kicked out would be relatively new recruits in their first enlistment. I can only imagine how much worse their experience was in many training exercises because of the ill-fitting masks, and honestly, I don't really see an alternative that doesn't potentially sacrifice their lives should they deploy. These soldiers will have already served sufficiently to obtain their benefits and it would be a medical discharge, which is not a dishonorable discharge. They would keep any benefits that they had obtained through their service.

And to preempt an argument... "there's no study that says beards/razor bumps interfere with gas masks"... There are. Most of them say minimal beards/hair is fine (less than 1/16th of an inch) to get a mask seal, where 1/8 can already lead to issues. But it's understudied. The risk of getting it wrong is people's lives.

Edit: Typo

Edit2: Reported by a blahaj.zone user...

Reason: Misinformation, dog whistles, and holding water for fascists

Lmfao. Apparently pointing out that this was a thing for a long time and restating information in the article itself is misinformation...

[-] AnarchistArtificer@slrpnk.net 9 points 2 weeks ago

Your comment has caused me to re-evaluate my perspective; thanks for sharing. The situation is more nuanced than I realised.

[-] TranscendentalEmpire@lemmy.today 5 points 2 weeks ago

And to preempt an argument... "there's no study that says beards/razor bumps interfere with gas masks"... There are. Most of them say minimal beards/hair is fine (less than 1/16th of an inch) to get a mask seal, where 1/8 can already lead to issues. But it's understudied. The risk of getting it wrong is people's lives.

You are conflating razor bumps with a 1/8" beard. There aren't studies that evaluate mask fittings with razor bumps, you're just adding that to suit your argument.

"While many military leaders defending the beard prohibition have repeated the claim that beards break gas mask seals, one Air Force doctor has found no direct scientific evidence to support it.

“It’s an unsubstantiated claim,” said Lt. Col. Simon Ritchie, a dermatologist who last year published a study on the beard prohibition’s discriminatory effect on Black airmen. While supporters of current Air Force policy “may have anecdotal evidence of one to five people who they see fail the fit test,” he said, “that can’t be extrapolated to hundreds of thousands of airmen.”

I've never been in the military, but I can guarantee I've had to wear a full face respirator rated for organic solvents more often than you. Imo beards have minimal effects on getting a decent seal. My hospital makes us do a fit test every 3-4 weeks, and I've passed with a beard longer than a 1/4" plenty of times.

In reality the shape of your face and the brand of your mask has a lot more to do with passing a fit test more than anything. I can guarantee that razor bumps aren't going to make a difference.

[-] Makhno@lemmy.world 3 points 2 weeks ago

one Air Force doctor has found no direct scientific evidence to support it.

One doctor, out of all of em? Some anti-vaccine type of stupid right there

[-] TranscendentalEmpire@lemmy.today 2 points 2 weeks ago

More than the amount of doctors who found direct scientific evidence ....

The guy wrote a paper about it and tried to find any evidence to support the new rules, he didn't find any.

[-] Saik0Shinigami@lemmy.saik0.com 1 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

I’ve never been in the military,

So then you have no clue what the M50 respirator fits like then...

but I can guarantee I’ve had to wear a full face respirator rated for organic solvents more often than you.

Weird guarantee to make when you have no fucking clue who I am or what I do... I even told you from my post that I have a full face respirator still. Would be weird to have one and not be using it no? But now this devolves into a pissing contest, which I'm not particularly interested in participating in.

Edit: Additionally... the risk of whatever you're doing in the hospital is much lower than Sarin gas or other wartime gaseous weapons. A bad seal for you might make you a little dizzy or you have to take a break and re-seal/replace your respirator, where a bad seal on the battle field would simply mean death.

[-] TranscendentalEmpire@lemmy.today 3 points 2 weeks ago

Edit: Additionally... the risk of whatever you're doing in the hospital is much lower than Sarin gas or other wartime gaseous weapons. A bad seal for you might make you a little dizzy or you have to take a break and re-seal/replace your respirator, where a bad seal on the battle field would simply mean death.

Lol, no we have to wear butyl respirators and do monthly fit tests because we work with extremely dangerous chemicals. Some of which do have a NFPA rating of 4, the same as Sarin.

[-] TranscendentalEmpire@lemmy.today 1 points 2 weeks ago

then you have no clue what the M50 respirator fits like then

Lol, I imagine it fits like any butyl rubber respirator. They aren't making them specifically worse just for the military.

Weird guarantee to make when you have no fucking clue who I am or what I do...

I mean, did you wear your respirator multiple hours everyday for more than ten years? Unless you were working in a lab for the military I highly doubt you spent much time in your PPE.

I even told you from my post that I have a full face respirator still. Would be weird to have one and not be using it no?

Not really? Unless you use it for your job a lot of people will have one they seldomly use at home for small projects like painting.

But now this devolves into a pissing contest, which I'm not particularly interested in participating in.

Your basing all of your argument on anecdotal evidence..... Of course bits going to divulge into a pissing contest. That's why I posted a source stating that there was no evidence supporting your claim....you know the part that you ignored.

Just being in the military isn't evidence, we have no idea what you mos was or how long you were in for. For all we know you could have just been a pog in the national guard for 4 years.

[-] Saik0Shinigami@lemmy.saik0.com 2 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

They aren’t making them specifically worse just for the military.

Oh boy... you don't know about military contracts do you?

That’s why I posted a source stating that there was no evidence supporting your claim…you know the part that you ignored.

You posted quotes with no source. Which is why I ignored it.

But fine... let's address these unsourced quotes since that's what you're hung up on.

"While many military leaders defending the beard prohibition have repeated the claim that beards break gas mask seals, one Air Force doctor has found no direct scientific evidence to support it.

Cool... one guy says it's not a problem. Here's an actual study. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29283316/

Results: FF decreased with beard length, especially beyond 0.125 in. However, passing FF scores were achieved on all tests by all subjects at the smooth shave and 0.063 in conditions, and 98% of tests were passed at 0.125 in; seven subjects passed all tests at all conditions.

“It’s an unsubstantiated claim,” said Lt. Col. Simon Ritchie, a dermatologist who last year published a study on the beard prohibition’s discriminatory effect on Black airmen. While supporters of current Air Force policy “may have anecdotal evidence of one to five people who they see fail the fit test,” he said, “that can’t be extrapolated to hundreds of thousands of airmen.”

I agree with him... it is discriminatory. But when the effect of that discrimination is less potential death on a battlefield...

The problem with this though is that services give profiles/chits for shaving... So those people often will not participate in mask training at all... Can't find what you're not even looking for. So just saying "anecdotal"... well yeah, that's all there is if he's not actively researching it. And as seen above, when research is done... it shows exactly what I said it shows, because I'm basing my opinion on my lived experience and the research that supports that. As I said though, it is under-researched...

And lastly...

In reality the shape of your face and the brand of your mask has a lot more to do with passing a fit test more than anything.

Which the military standardized on one specific model of mask... so picking a choosing a brand is kind of out of the question now isn't it?

I would like to pose a different question for you then... Assuming that you have the 1/4" or longer facial hair now that you claim you wear... Would you be confident that you could run in it for a football field carrying gear and shooting a gun for hours without losing the seal?

Edit: Bad wording...

[-] TranscendentalEmpire@lemmy.today 1 points 2 weeks ago

Oh boy... you don't know about military contracts do you?

So your mask didn't work then...?

You posted quotes with no source. Which is why I ignored it.

you are exhaustingly pedantic...

Cool... one guy says it's not a problem. Here's an actual study. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29283316

" Beard length and areal density negatively influence FF. However, tight-fitting half-face negative-pressure respirator fit tests can achieve adequate fit factor scores even with substantial facial hair in the face seal area"

I don't really think one could really claim that a 2% reduction in effectiveness quantifies as beards break gas mask seals.

agree with him... it is discriminatory.

That's what the whole argument was about.

when the effect of that discrimination is less potential death on a battlefield...

Again, you haven't substantiated your claim about bumps effecting seals... You haven't even substantiated that beards break seals.

So no, you can't claim it would save lives. Plus, the majority of people serving in the military arent in combat positions.

And as seen above, when research is done... it shows exactly what I said it shows, because I'm basing my opinion on my lived experience and the research that supports that.

I don't think you read that paper correctly.....

Which the military standardized on one specific model of mask... so picking a choosing a brand is kind of out of the question now isn't it?

That doesn't have anything to do with your facial hair.....does it?

would like to pose a different question for you then... Assuming that you have the 1/4" or longer facial hair now that you claim you wear... Would you be confident that you could run in it for a football field carrying gear and shooting a gun for hours without losing the seal?

I don't have a beard atm, but I would be just as confident doing that with or without the beard.

[-] wesdym@mastodon.social 2 points 2 weeks ago

@TranscendentalEmpire The article itself said that beards don't meaningfully interfere with masks, so it's not even necessary to feed that troll; they already knew that, if they read it.

Military beard/mask doctrine goes back literally a century, based on tech of that time -- not what we have now. (I'm not sure how proven it was then, either, but it hardly matters now.)

I share what I'm sure is widespread suspicion that this policy is, in our time, racist in intent, not just in effect.

[-] TranscendentalEmpire@lemmy.today 2 points 2 weeks ago

Yeah, I'm just pulling his chain at this point. He's just a conservative chode, wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't ever in the military to begin with.

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[-] SulaymanF@lemmy.world 4 points 2 weeks ago

The recent policy update under Brig. Gen. David R. Everly reversed a 2022 rule". This "rule" is very new and was likely found to harm wartime readiness after trying it out.

Likely according to what evidence? You’re making an assumption here. I have zero reason to assume good faith with Trump and Hegseth changing anything right now, why should you?

[-] Saik0Shinigami@lemmy.saik0.com 5 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29283316/ from 2018 says there's problems with even really short lengths of beard...

But you're correct in that I don't have any evidence that the military found or validated the same findings internally. I think it's more likely than not though.

Edit: Actually I do have some minor proof that they know there's issues... But it's covered in the same "it's really understudied" caveat that I put in the post itself. Not worth really discussing IMO.

Edit2: I'd even disbelieve that Trump knows enough about the military to find out that they could use this to be frank...

[-] TranscendentalEmpire@lemmy.today 1 points 2 weeks ago

from 2018 says there's problems with even really short lengths of beard...

You are making claims that weren't in the article. That studies conclusiion were

"Conclusion: Beard length and areal density negatively influence FF. However, tight-fitting half-face negative-pressure respirator fit tests can achieve adequate fit factor scores even with substantial facial hair in the face seal area."

Plus your original claim was that razor bumps would negatively impact the fit, not short length beards. You're moving the goalposts.

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[-] mic_check_one_two@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 2 weeks ago

The funny part is that I said basically this exact same thing in another thread, and got shouted down with “lul gas masks seal fine over a beard” types of comments.

[-] Saik0Shinigami@lemmy.saik0.com 4 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

Yeah... I expected those here as well... thus the "and to preempt an argument" section.

I'm out of the military now... I oftentimes let my beard get longer... I can promise you(anyone) that masks don't fit nearly as well. I have a personal full face respirator for a number of reasons. It doesn't seal nearly as well when my beard is anything beyond basic stubble for me. First the beard changes your face shape, second hair doesn't compress well unless you really crank on the straps and thus by nature the seal becomes uneven since hair moves and clumps, third when you crank on the straps... it fucking hurts after a while. Turns out people in general don't like having their face compressed.

Now you want to apply those problems to a warzone... Where the first and second will make donning your mask considerably harder when you're under fire... and the third will make it more likely that people will want to remove the mask or make worse choices because they're in literal pain wearing the mask.

It's one thing if you're only wearing the mask in a fire or something and a nominal amount of carbon monoxide gets through... Mustard gas or other agents could be outright deadly at very low doses.

Edit: Oh another difference... Consumer shit isn't meant to be worn for days on end... So it tends to be softer/pliable. Which can contour and fit more shapes/beards and such... Military NBC equipment isn't this way. It's mean to be worn for considerably longer and perform to a much different standard. They much more rigid, which adds to the problem a bit... less flexible overall because it needs to be a more resistant rubber/plastic. A respirator for a ~~firefighter gets~~ civilian purposes are typically used for a few hours before being replaced... A soldier could be wearing the same mask for weeks or months only replacing the cartridge when expended.

[-] Pieisawesome@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 2 weeks ago

Firefighters don’t replace their masks after hours.

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[-] Frostbeard@lemmy.world 3 points 2 weeks ago

I had a beard while in (Norwegian combat engineer). You can pull the mask as tight as a homophobic preachers sphincter in a pride parade and it will never be completely sealed. After the first time it was voluntary to pull off the mask while testing using CS, I used to take it off as I was exposed already. In a war situation I would be smooth as Flipper in a second

[-] outhouseperilous@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 2 weeks ago

Fucking men thinking they should be the ones fighting wars. They're worse shots, they can't wear gas masks, they take up more space in transports...

[-] some_guy@lemmy.sdf.org 1 points 2 weeks ago

Here’s the rub though, you can’t have soldiers that can’t put on NBC masks and keep them deployable.

There are plenty of jobs to be done away from front lines, are there not? I have never served, but it seems like there ought to be lots and lots of jobs where people are cogs in a machine in offices and the like. Please inform me why soldiers can't get rotated to such positions to keep them employed.

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[-] RejZoR@lemmy.ml 10 points 2 weeks ago

Considering they are starting another war in middle east, I don't think they'll need shaving where they are going...

[-] PunkRockSportsFan@fanaticus.social 3 points 2 weeks ago

If they get a medical discharge with full benefits for life I say ok

[-] JamesTBagg@lemmy.world 8 points 2 weeks ago

If their condition doesn't improve within a year following a four-step treatment plan, Marines with PFB may be discharged with an honorable discharge for "incompatibility with service" at their commanding officer's discretion,

You could just read the article, it's in there.

[-] PunkRockSportsFan@fanaticus.social 9 points 2 weeks ago

But I can’t read

[-] Agent641@lemmy.world 10 points 2 weeks ago

Thank you for your service, marine!

[-] PunkRockSportsFan@fanaticus.social 2 points 2 weeks ago

I can’t read I didn’t say I ate crayons

[-] JamesTBagg@lemmy.world 1 points 2 weeks ago

Dang, man, that sucks. But anyways, good news, these guys should be getting honorable discharges which grants them full access to VA benefits.

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[-] Susaga@sh.itjust.works 2 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

You know what? Having a large number of trained military personnel (including the fucking marines) be victimised and removed from service by the US government might be a good thing in the long run.

[-] BeardedGingerWonder@feddit.uk 3 points 2 weeks ago

It might, but correct me if I'm wrong here (not a USer) but isn't the military/GI bill a huge tool for social mobility in the US?

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[-] Schwim@lemmy.zip 2 points 2 weeks ago

This is not new. Over 20 years ago, Marines with chronic razor bumps would have to head to the medic to get a waiver for inspections. A couple of them had such a bad case, their waver would allow them to keep a very tightly trimmed beard for their entire time.

[-] jve@lemmy.world 22 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

This is not new. Over 20 years ago, Marines with chronic razor bumps would have to head to the medic to get a waiver for inspections.

Very first sentence in the article is about how they’re removing those waivers.

[-] aramova@infosec.pub 11 points 2 weeks ago

So, kick everyone out of the military we can for any stupid reason we can when already chronically short staffed.

/OMG we need a draft

[-] FordBeeblebrox@lemmy.world 5 points 2 weeks ago

Nope, mostly just the brown ones. For…reasons.

[-] Glytch@lemmy.world 7 points 2 weeks ago

So a bunch of trained soldiers are suddenly going to lose their jobs for largely racist reasons and be angry about it. Yeah that seems like a great plan.

[-] zqps@sh.itjust.works 9 points 2 weeks ago

If those Marines could read they'd be very upset!

[-] Octavio@lemmy.world 6 points 2 weeks ago

Yeah but you don’t understand. That information was not in the headline so there was no possible way of knowing about it.

[-] AlecSadler@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 2 weeks ago

This timeline fucking sucks and I wish cancer on all regressive political parties.

[-] gravitas_deficiency@sh.itjust.works 2 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

That would be… both of them. But yes, I know which one you’re primarily referring to, and I agree.

Clarification: I’m not saying “both sides same”. I am saying that it’s getting prey damn hard to avoid the conclusion that the Democratic Party is functionally just controlled opposition at this point.

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[-] Blackmist@feddit.uk 1 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

Why would they kick black men out of the marines?

Wars still need cannon fodder.

[-] takeda@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 2 weeks ago

If you plan to issue illegal orders the white males are more likely be aligned with taco.

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[-] sfxrlz@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 2 weeks ago

Aimed at enhancing Marines' "warfighting capability," the guidance states that service members with PFB must undergo a medical evaluation within 90 days.

they’re not even trying to make sense anymore lol

[-] BakerBagel@midwest.social 1 points 2 weeks ago

The whole point is to kick black men out of the military

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