fuck either of them.

no loyalty to any state.

Patriotism isn't a good thing at all.

Office meme, they're the same picture. The world no longer needs people who are willing to die for, or equally kill for, their country

If your whole identity is based on the fact you where born at some location on this planet, you really need some self reflection and deprogramming

“Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.”

—Mark Twain

Both are tribalism of different levels of intensity. Our brains are predisposed for us-them mentality, some stronger than others, some can leave it behind others never will. It's also the most exploitable feeling in the history of our species, with fear may be the close contender.

Obviously a government embracing tribalism leads to horrid shit (everyone without an armband knows it) BUT ignoring it completely allows something else snake its way into that void. If you're lucky its something vegetarian like football hooliganism, if you-re not -- pan-nationalism, religious zealotry, whatever the 4chan incel shit is, people who can't or won't leave tribal mentality will find a dirt to roll in.

IMHO it is worth considering implementing a civic religion a-la french republicanism. Yes it can be a gateway to nationalism, but it also lets tribal minded people wave their flags and "guard the civic values" or whatever while the rest of us continue our lives in peace. As a bonus it improves civic participation and if you're attacked -- well there's already something for you to rally around.

Every "nationalist" believes themselves a "patriot".

All this image does is allow you to self-soothe that you're "one of the good ones".

Nobody should be patriotic with the genocidal settler colony that is the USA.

And the brainwashing goes on and on..

This is bullshit.

Even if the technical definition of "patriotism" is all of these good things, it doesn't matter because everyone thinks it means all of those bad things.

Nah, fuck that. Patriotism is just nationalism light.

Both are stupid, especially if you live in the USA, where your government will let you be rendered homeless and dead in the street if you can't pay enough money into the capitalist machine.

What's to be proud of?

Patriotism is the little sibling of nationalism, and the boundaries are fluid. I will never understand why people are proud of other people's accomplishments and make them their own. Or is it because people were shat on somewhere else in the world than everyone else? Makes absolutely no sense.

A long time ago I read some post that stuck with me.

It said that some people love their country the way a child loves their parent. They're perfect and smart and strong and can beat up your parent. They don't have any flaws, and can do no wrong. They're the best ever.

Other people love their country the way an adult loves a peer. They see the potential, the good, but also the flaws. They want what's best for both of them, even if it's uncomfortable and difficult. And ultimately, if the relationship becomes abusive, they won't just take it.

Conservatives often are the first one, but I think they are generally more immature. Fearful, tribal, angry.

Loving your country in the second way can be okay, I think. It can be a vehicle for improvement. People have wanted to improve their living spaces and communities for longer than we've had recorded history. It doesn't have to be toxic or zero-sum.

fuck nationalism patriotism all that shit.

Simp for community, not a heirarchical country you were taught to fall in love with.

Nationalism has become such a no go that nationalists will call themselves patriots but it's just a euphemism for the first

Both are shit. It seems like american culture in general is just lesser-evilism.

Americans act like the two are separate things so they can continue to be brainwashed into being good little America #1 oorah's.

Grow up, be proud of your own achievements, hard-work, and yourself not a fucking nation state like a little proto-fash.

Patriotism is often equally bad.

Humanism ftw.

Existed just 4 years

Lost a war againt the USA

Prouldy waved 150 years later

Fuck both, honestly. I can take pride in who I am, learn history, improve my community and defend it, without tying all of those values to a nation state that can and will inevitably at some point use it's centralized, hierarchical, border-delineated power to oppress and dominate and be exactly the thing I don't want.

I'm sick of these lib takes clinging desperately to values they never bothered to fully examine because of some misplaced nostalgia, national mythology, material privilege, etc.

💗 🌸 🤗 Death to America 😎 ❤️ 💋

It's false and self serving to say all the good parts are patriotism and that's what I do but all the bad parts are nationalism and that's what they do.

All nation states are murderous vermin undeserving of respect. Holding any identity strongly - national, religious or ideological - can turn you into a destructive rube.

Patriotism is loving your country and wanting it to prosper. Nationalism is believing your country is superior to other countries and seeing all others as adversaries.

It's the difference between working on self-improvement because you care about yourself vs. wanting to take things from others and being paranoid about them taking from you.