Sorry, speed cameras aren’t the problem (archive.is)

submitted 3 days ago by sbv@sh.itjust.works to c/canada@lemmy.ca

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A spectre is haunting Canadian roads: the real prospect of actually having to pay a fine for not respecting the speed limit. As speed cameras proliferate, particularly in Ontario, some drivers are showing their displeasure. Many of the cameras have been vandalized and one in Toronto cut down six times.

It’s time for a deep breath.

Speed cameras shouldn’t disappear, they should multiply. The cameras are effective and, because their penalty is so easily avoided, they are fair.

...

In fact, a recent poll for CAA showed majority support among Ontarians for the cameras. Politicians who pander to the minority of drivers who hate them are gambling with public safety.

Those politicians span the ideological spectrum, from Ontario’s Progressive Conservative Premier Doug Ford to former Ontario Liberal leader Steven Del Duca, now mayor of suburban Vaughan, and left-leaning Toronto Mayor Olivia Chow.

So busy trying to placate drivers, these politicians ignore that speed cameras work. The hit in the wallet is sufficiently unpleasant that it convinces people to slow down. For evidence, consider that the number of tickets issued by any given camera typically goes down over time.

That effect has been further demonstrated by research from a hospital and university in Toronto. According to their findings, referenced in a recent city staff report, the proportion of vehicles speeding went down 45 per cent after cameras were installed near schools and in high-collision areas.

...

A person hit by a vehicle travelling at 30 kilometres an hour has a 90-per-cent chance of surviving. Increase the speed to 40 kilometres an hour, though, and the survival rate drops to 60 per cent. A person hit at 50 kilometres an hour has only a 20-per-cent chance of living.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/editorials/article-sorry-speed-cameras-arent-the-problem/

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[-] a9249@lemmy.ca 10 points 2 days ago

Typical argument for someone who's never lived in a place with speed cameras. The cameras themselves, sure, they're fine.

They start getting people going 10-over, but people adjust their habits accordingly, revenue drops, now they target people going 2 over.

Next they target people in school zones. All well and good. But we need to increase revenue. Parks are now school zones. Trails near the roads are now school zones. And now we're expanding the zone times from 6am-9pm. Love my 36 in a 30 along a 60 road at 2047pm ticket. GREAT.

Finally, after people get used to all the above they start messing with the limits themselves. 6 lane roads, down to 40... but not the entire thing. lets have a road that went through town from 110-90-60-90-110 turn into 110-50-90-60-70-30-40-70-50-90-60-90-110-50-110. in 8km, speed cameras at every reduction! [Calgary 16th ave] Miss a zone and you're screwed.

But that's not enough. We need to grow revenue. Lets have forward facing cameras implimented too, and take points. That way our friends in insurance can benefit too. They will even pay a bounty for each person caught.

The same goes for red lights - see the winnipeg 0.5second yellow light camera scandal.

[-] rekabis@lemmy.ca 1 points 15 hours ago* (last edited 15 hours ago)

Can’t recall where I last saw it, but many larger roads are designed for speeds up to twice the posted rate without significant increases in accidents.

Now granted, a big problem in Canada is driver training and vehicle condition, but if Germany can have autobahns with no speed limits, why can’t we? All it would take is a decade or so of gradual re-authenticating skill levels, and a significant inspection system for vehicles. But that’s the trade-off needed if you want to have safe roads at any speed.

Note: for training, it would include extensive mandatory training, pass/fail limits that are far more stringent than what we currently have, and include new driver behavioural features like two lanes pulling apart when a traffic jam occurs, so that emergency vehicles have unrestricted passage -- with no non-emergency vehicles using that “shortcut”. For vehicle inspections it would be a level that demands showroom-pristine condition for all vehicles: no visible rust, no nonfunctional parts (even superfluous ones like AC), and the ability to take hydraulic rams to different body parts (underside, body panels, etc.) without the ram punching through due to rust-weakened panels.

This would absolutely trigger the “muh freedumb” people, but you cannot have higher speeds without more stringent safety measures in place.

[-] slykethephoxenix@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

In Australia, they have mobile speed cameras. Like they are inside of a special car they just park on the side of the road. No warning. Often placed at annoying spots, like the bottom of hills and stuff.

My first and only speeding ticket was going 45 in a 40 (normally 50) zone. Sun was in my eyes, they had a single construction sign up saying 40, with no other stuff around you'd expect in a construction zone.

I was going to contest it, but had already left for Canada by the time it came in the mail.

[-] isVeryLoud@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 day ago

Thankfully, this isn't legal in most Canadian jurisdictions, speed cameras need to be marked with a sign.

[-] FireRetardant@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago

They typically call those zones by parks, trails, and sports complexs community safety zones. To be honest those zones should be 24 hours as they see lots pedestrian traffic often including children.

[-] Medic8teMe@lemmy.ca 14 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

They eliminated speed traps in Calgary Alberta fairly recently. The police service is in economic distress because of it. Loss of revenue per year 28 million.

I'm all for reducing speeds but these cameras are well known to be used to fund police departments with massive swat teams, public policing issues, military assault vehicles, automatic weapons and now things like facial recognition software and interception of communications. Is this really what we want as citizens, to become more authoritarian and funded by money grabs until we have a dictator like those to the south of us?

https://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news/provinces-photo-radar-purge-leaves-calgary-police-with-28m-shortfall-taxes-may-need-to-rise-warns-councillor

[-] rekabis@lemmy.ca 1 points 15 hours ago

Loss of revenue per year 28 million.

If the fines were directly proportional to income and net worth, I would have absolutely no problem re-instituting those speed traps.

But if it’s a flat rate… any fine that that is a fixed number is meant to punish the working class for the crime of being poor.

And the wealthy will just see it as the cost of having fun, and pay the fine with the spare change they normally forget about in the bottom of their pockets. They’ll just continue doing what they’re doing because fines fail to impact them in any meaningful manner.

[-] Grappling7155@lemmy.ca 11 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

The revenues should have never gone to the police in the first place, they should go into redesigning and rebuilding problematic stroads so the cameras become unnecessary over time while other new permanent features of the road like speedbumps, curves, narrowing, and other traffic calming changes will enforce the speed limits passively.

[-] FireRetardant@lemmy.world 11 points 2 days ago

Part of the problem is that roadway rule enforcement is seen as the police's problem and the police's budget, which is probably why they were getting the revenue from the cameras in the first place.

The portion of police budgets that goes to traffic control, responding to accidents, doing radar, and issuing tickets should be considered part of the roadway budget. How we design, fund, maintain roadways and their alternatives directly impacts the funding needed to enforce roadway rules and respond to roadway accidents. It doesn't seem fair for speed enforcement not to be considered while designing the road then just dump that problem onto the police budget.

[-] Medic8teMe@lemmy.ca 5 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

Excellent point. There are so many critical errors in how our society operates. It gets overwhelming sometimes with how far necessary reform reaches into things we all take for granted.

[-] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 11 points 3 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

Of all the fucked up technologies police forces and governments are using, many of which have terrifying abuse potential, this is the one people complain about.

[-] Medic8teMe@lemmy.ca 6 points 2 days ago

It's wedge issues like this that cause enough distraction to allow increased surveillance and authoritarianism of the general public. That's the police biz.

[-] Enkers@sh.itjust.works 30 points 3 days ago

OK, so what's the argument against using other traffic calming measures that don't steal money from people, and are just as, if not more, effective instead?

[-] sbv@sh.itjust.works 15 points 3 days ago

Sounds good. Let's do that too!

[-] PeriodicallyPedantic@lemmy.ca 25 points 3 days ago

Flat fines mean it's only a crime for the poor

[-] sbv@sh.itjust.works 9 points 3 days ago

Fines should be proportional to assets and income.

[-] PeriodicallyPedantic@lemmy.ca 15 points 3 days ago

They should be. But they aren't.
Which is especially egregious with the terrible investment in public transportation. You want poor people to stop speeding? Give them a decent alternative to cars.

[-] sbv@sh.itjust.works 9 points 3 days ago

You're right, we definitely need better public transport.

[-] FireRetardant@lemmy.world 8 points 3 days ago

Mostly the financial cost and labor of installation. 2 people and a truck can install cameras and maintain them for relatively cheap compared to redesigning and resurfacing a road.

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[-] grey_maniac@lemmy.ca 3 points 3 days ago

Like what, specifically?

[-] IronKrill@lemmy.ca 3 points 2 days ago

Trees, removing excess lane space, avoiding long straight stretches (ideally with street layout, but also chicanes), etcetera. If a road feels like a residential road, people treat it like one. And vice versa, if a road feels like a highway...

[-] Enkers@sh.itjust.works 16 points 3 days ago

Lane width restriction is my preferred method, but speed bumps are probably even more guaranteed to be effective.

[-] Medic8teMe@lemmy.ca 5 points 3 days ago

Roundabouts are awesome. People are still idiots however.

[-] Enkers@sh.itjust.works 4 points 3 days ago

I think you just have to commit to it. It's only a problem when people are unfamiliar with them. Once They're exposed enough, they'll get the hang of em pretty quickly. They just need to be fairly ubiquitous.

[-] Medic8teMe@lemmy.ca 6 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

We have a lot of them where I live now. They keep them single lane in most places. This is good. There is one major 4 lane and it's a nightmare most days. Been in place for over 50 years and most still don't understand it.

I still think they're great and effective as well.

[-] cyborganism@piefed.ca 3 points 3 days ago

Speed bumps hinder emergency vehicles though.

[-] wildbus8979@sh.itjust.works 10 points 3 days ago

They also increase noise in the neighborhood due to constant breaking ne acceleration. But tree, narrowing of streets and intersections, etc are all very effective and overall greatly improve residents quality of life.

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[-] FireRetardant@lemmy.world 3 points 3 days ago

Speed bumps can be designed to accommodate emergency vehicles.

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[-] Idontopenenvelopes@lemmy.world 17 points 3 days ago

Speed cameras aren't the problem, but implementation is. When you're 5km over, well within variation of seasonal tire size difference impact on speedometer, and variations in acceleration/deceleration and road incline changes, and you get dinged not only for each of the kms you are over , but also get charged victim surcharges and administrative surcharges and a fuck you surcharge. Before it's all said and done the surcharges make it a $100. When the surcharges are more than 70-80% of your ticket it's an indiscriminate money grab.

[-] droopy4096@lemmy.ca 11 points 3 days ago

effective city planning would be better like a lot better. Having environmental clues and enforcement techniques is way more effective as it prevents and not punishes. Person injured from speeding incident is not going to be saved by $500 or whatever fine. When driver physically feels unsafe crossing certain speed limit - there's no reason to monitor or fine him/her. "More cameras" is a cheap brand bandaid that peels off two hours later. It is trying to save people "after the fact", when it's way too late

[-] sbv@sh.itjust.works 3 points 3 days ago

I completely agree. But we've got a bunch of existing roads, and we need to deal with the existing infrastructure. New roads should be built more intelligently (ideally prioritizing walking or cycling, and transit before single occupancy vehicles) to do exactly as you say.

[-] belathus@lemmy.blahaj.zone 10 points 3 days ago

A few years ago in Washington DC, a section of a highway had a speed camera installed and they reduced the speed limit from 55mph to 35mph. The area was also marked as a construction zone. The only indication of these changes was a single speed limit sign with a small construction zone sign right above it, and the camera was immediately after it, so if you weren't already at 35mph by the time you passed the camera, you get a ticket. There was no construction for several miles either; no cones, no workers, nothing.

I was returning home fom a service call at 3 am when this camera dinged me. I was going 55mph, and the ticket was $270. Since I was driving a company vehicle, my company didn't give me the chance to fight it, not that I could've ... the "judge" for these fines was an employee of the company that owned the camera, and they reportedly always sided with the company. This camera was noted to be the most profitable camera in the United States at the time. Hopefully Canada doesn't outsource their traffic cameras.

[-] Bebopalouie@lemmy.ca 6 points 3 days ago

A friend of mine was literally ripped apart a few weeks ago on his motorcycle. He was hit by a speeding texter. He lost his leg, his eye, had facial reconstruction both his arms And remaining leg are in traction. Won’t be out until October. I was for speed cameras before his accident. Even more so now.

I do wish they would be more wary of Cameras at traffic lights due to asshat peops who keep turning on left way past the light changing making it look like you ran it not the asshat.

[-] corsicanguppy@lemmy.ca 7 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

Cameras at traffic lights

...cause far more rear-enders than people squeezing the light. It's a different story: more cash grab than even speed cams, with negative goal achievement.

Oh wait. Even speed cameras aren't the boon as advertised:

Proponents of automated traffic enforcement (ATE) see it as a solution to improving traffic safety and limiting violent interactions between law enforcement and drivers during minor traffic stops. But there is little evidence that either safety goal is achieved when enforcement is predicated simply on the assessment of financial sanctions. Instead, the evidence shows that traffic injuries and deaths continue to rise and officers continue to use traffic enforcement as a pretext for other investigations, all while state and local governments earn millions of dollars in profits.

(Not a great source, but that's a money quote)

[-] ikidd@lemmy.world 6 points 3 days ago

Abso-fucking-lutely. Speed cameras fix nothing, least of all at the time of speeding. No demerits, no suspensions, just another bill to pay like parking tickets. And if they figure out where the speed camera is, it's good for about 100m of coverage.

I've never seen so many unjustified justice boners as !Canada@lemmy.ca over radar cameras.

[-] sbv@sh.itjust.works 6 points 3 days ago

Holy crap. That's horrific. I hope your friend recovers as much as possible.

[-] Bebopalouie@lemmy.ca 5 points 3 days ago

Thanks. I finally got to speak to him for the first time today. I am not able to go visit him as I don’t have a vehicle to go visit and have ailments of my own which limit my mobility greatly. We are both around 70. He is feisty to say the least, I think he will do well in his rehab. Hopefully, he sues the ever loving fuck out of the guy and gets a shit ton of money so he can go retire on a island somewhere and live the Life of O’Reilly for the rest of his days.

[-] TrickDacy@lemmy.world 5 points 3 days ago

Legit first time I've seen someone argue in favor of speed cameras. Fuck speed cameras.

[-] nyan@lemmy.cafe 3 points 3 days ago

When you get right down to it, the lack of teleport booths is the problem. People see time spent in transit between A and B as time wasted, so the natural instict is to try to shorten it at any cost. As usual, this is modified by the tendency for humans to have really poor risk-assessment abilities.

[-] Auli@lemmy.ca 4 points 3 days ago

Problem with speed cameras is they don't stop speeding. People know where they are and they slow down for before them and then speed up after. Also getting a ticket is weeks later. Getting pulled over is much more effective and people actually change their driving habits.

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