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I'm frustrated. I'm a long time fan of Motorola. Their phones have been pretty simple and easy to remove junk apps. Recently I got an update that forced perplexity on my phone.

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[-] fruitycoder@sh.itjust.works 1 points 3 days ago
[-] AmbiguousProps@lemmy.today 23 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Do you need root? It's a big security risk, for multiple reasons.

You can always just get a used pixel (no further money to Google), and install a custom ROM that allows your bootloader to relock after installation. I personally prefer Graphene for this, but I believe Lineage also allows you to do so. They both have no bloat from the start, and GOS has sandboxed Google Play and Lineage has the ability to use microG iirc.

GOS can be installed via chromium based browsers, even from another phone. Security wise, there's nothing more secure at the moment.

[-] LAN_Mower@lemmybefree.net 3 points 1 week ago

Why are pixels so popular for this?

[-] AmbiguousProps@lemmy.today 30 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Pixels are (currently) the only phones that allow for all of the following at once:

  • Proper verified boot
  • Bootloader unlocking (this is most important for any custom ROM installation, regardless of ROM)
  • Hardware memory tagging
  • Full hardware isolation
  • Hardware key attestation
  • Ability to disable USB data (and also USB entirely) at the hardware level
  • Everything else on this list

In short, it's simply because Pixel currently has the most hardware level security features of any Android phone (on top of bootloader unlocking), for now. The Graphene team is allegedly in talks with an OEM to produce a phone specifically designed for it, which may be just as or even more secure. Time will tell.

I feel the need to mention that I'm not trying to shill for Graphene and especially not Google. Depending on your threat model and goal, Lineage or similar might be just fine for you. I just don't think there's anything more secure than GOS at the moment, and if that is important to you, along with minimizing bloat, it's a great choice. I do highly recommend avoiding root and instead just get something that you can unlock the bootloader for, and then install a degoogled ROM. Just make sure you don't accidentally buy a permanently locked phone, make sure it says unlocked somewhere in the listing.

[-] LAN_Mower@lemmybefree.net 8 points 1 week ago

Great write up! Thank you!!

[-] Broken@lemmy.ml 3 points 1 week ago

I'm sure its in the link the other comment provided, but I'll call out that you not only can unlock your bootloader to install your OS but you can relock it so nothing can install anything afterwards.

So if your phone is ever not in your possession you can be sure that nobody installed anything. Also keeps your phone safe from malware (at root level).

[-] surjomukhi@lemmygrad.ml 3 points 1 week ago

Desktop operating systems provide root access without forcing you to bypass manufacturer restrictions. Why should phones be any different?

[-] AmbiguousProps@lemmy.today 2 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Android is not designed the same way as a desktop operating system. For example, Android is designed to sandbox all applications and never require kernel level access. This means that if one app is malicious, as long as you haven't granted it extra permissions, it's much more difficult for it to affect any other apps. If you root, you're breaking that level of defense. Android simply wasn't designed for users to need or regularly use root, whereas Linux was built from the ground up with that expectation.

Root also makes applying security patches a challenge. Android doesn't have a standard package manager like desktop Linux. This means that users with rooted phones are less inclined to go through the pain of updating. I haven't rooted in a long while, but I can confirm that when I did root, I tended to avoid it for far too long. Anyway, the way Android's incremental OTA updates work is by comparing partition hashes. When rooted, this hash gets changed and you can no longer install OTA updates.

Further, root on Android can (and as far as I recall, does) affect verified boot, meaning if you want verified boot, every time you reboot you lose root. Android verified boot detects changes to system partition and either doesn't boot or reverts the changes. If you turn off verified boot, you cannot know if your system has been modified in a malicious way.

Put a slightly different way, Android's security model is entirely different than the security model of something like Linux. Linux expects you to need sudo/root for certain tasks, and other protections are built around that. Android does not expect you to ever need root, so it's not a consideration in its security design.

By rooting, you're not just bypassing manufacturer restrictions, you're bypassing Android's security design entirely. It's much more secure to just install a debloated, degoogled OS that can do verified boot.

Now, if mobile Linux ever takes off, then I'm sure it would be more like a desktop distro and less like Android.

[-] Ulrich@feddit.org 21 points 1 week ago

Recently I got an update that forced perplexity on my phone.

Fuck me, that's infuriating.

What country are you in? Murena sells Fairphones in the US.

Other than that, I know this isn't what you asked for but GrapheneOS can be installed from the browser on your computer....

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[-] SwooshBakery624@programming.dev 17 points 1 week ago

rooted

Root is always a security risk, you really should not. (GrapheneOS comment (on Reddit) about rooting.)

out the box

None, probably. Refer to Bootloader Unlock Wall of Shame instead to check which companies do not restrict bootloader unlocking. See here for a list of devices where the bootloader can be locked with custom AVB Keys.

[-] jeff_hykin@lemmy.world 18 points 1 week ago

security risk

All those rooted concerns are true for desktop Linux / MacOS, and they still ship with sudo. If I can't rm -rf the root partition then its not really my device.

The bootloader wall of shame is nice.

[-] AmbiguousProps@lemmy.today 13 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Android does not have the same security model as desktop Linux. I made a comment about this above (which you probably can't see due to .world being defederated with who I replied to), but if you don't want to go to my comment history, it's summed up as three or so main issues.

Rooting breaks OTA updates since it modifies your partition hash, meaning rooted users tend to leave security holes open way too long. Android does not have a package manager for you to be able to update these issues individually.

Android does not expect users to have root access, so they do not even consider it in the design. Android sandboxes apps, and apps can only generally have permissions that you grant, with no direct access to the kernel. However, rooting adds an entirely new attack surface for which there are no protections whatsoever. Desktop Linux, on the other hand, does expect users to need root level access from time to time. That's what sudo is for, but you should not confuse this with switching your user entirely to root and doing everything as root. There's a reason that's not recommended on Linux: it's dangerous. The same thing applies to Android. On top of that, Linux has other tools and protections designed to make running as sudoer safer, and Android has none.

Finally, it breaks your ability to use proper verified boot. If your system partions silently get malware installed, there's generally no way for a user with a rooted phone to notice. Verified boot protects against this, but because rooting (along with whatever else you're running as root) changes your partition hashes, it will either stop booting or revert your changes.

If mobile Linux ever takes off, it will likely be very similar to desktop Linux and be designed with root in mind.

[-] planish@sh.itjust.works 5 points 1 week ago

Touching the system partition isn't the only thing one would do with root. And if the ROM ships su in the ROM, there's no problem of being out of sync with upstream or even not passing boot verification.

It does open up an attack surface against the app that provides the UI to gate root access. But that has to be considered against the "availability" arm of the security triad.

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[-] bad_news@lemmy.billiam.net 15 points 1 week ago

Re: all the other root concerns. I'm on Graphene sans root and it's fine because my OS isn't actively cockblocking anything. I can even spoof GPS and such. Is there something you know you need root for v the normal setup on non-Googled Android forks?

[-] RheumatoidArthritis@mander.xyz 2 points 1 week ago

Not OP, but Neobackup (full app backup) and Hail (ability to "freeze" - stop apps until you explicitly run them again) are my two big use cases for root

[-] zarenki@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 week ago

Similar to the full app backup use-case mentioned in another comment, I regularly use root to (through adb shell) make a personal backup of my owned kindle books and keys which I can then use to convert them to DRM-free epub and read those books in non Amazon approved apps. The encrypted books are in shared storage but the key to decrypt them is in an app-private database. I also occasionally backup my own apk/obb files.

A "security model" designed around the idea that users should never be able to have any kind of access, not even read-only, to the data that app developers store on their owned device if the developer doesn't want them to is one that is fundamentally incompatible with computing freedom.

I keep a secondary device with rooted Lineage at home for the few apps I want root access to, instead of rooting my daily driver, but I always feel like it would be reassuring to have the ability to make proper backups from my main phone.

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[-] cerebralhawks@lemmy.dbzer0.com 12 points 1 week ago

That’s what OnePlus, Nothing, and FairPhone are supposed to be about.

For privacy, I like my iPhone, but I can’t really recommend them anymore. Even with “Apple Intelligence” the keyboard is hilariously terrible. It gets a few things right and I’m wondering more and more if the ecosystem is worth it. But throwing money at Google somehow seems worse.

[-] OhtoAiReal@programming.dev 6 points 1 week ago

Sadly, we've lost Calyx till Febuary. Fairphone 5 with Calyx is the ultimate private phone. You can also get any Google device and flash Graphene.

[-] Kirk@startrek.website 5 points 1 week ago

That’s what OnePlus, Nothing, and FairPhone are supposed to be about.

It seems that you're implying they're not? Could you expand?

[-] monovergent@lemmy.ml 12 points 1 week ago

OnePlus originally had really nice enthusiast features and support for the CyanogenMod ROM. Now it's just another manufacturer of corporate-safe glass-and-metal slabs while the soul of CyanogenMod lives on in LineageOS.

Carl Pei left OnePlus and put together Nothing. Nothing is a bit closer to what OnePlus was supposed to be, but they still leave much to be desired. They went all the way to implement a detachable back on the CMF phone, but the battery is still sealed inside. Absolutely no advantage compared to manufacturers like Google in terms of the third-party ROM experience.

FairPhone is the best of the bunch, but their priorities don't necessarily match those of the community (i.e. security concerns, loss of audio jack and USB 3.0 on the FP6)

[-] alkaliv2@lemmy.world 3 points 1 week ago

You noted on the phone hardware but not the software so I'll comment on that. Recently OnePlus has announced as of Android 16 that they will restrict bootloader unlocking to only those who fill out an application.

Nothing Phone 3 and all prior Nothing phone bootloader are still unlockable to this day with no call to restrict it. I would know, I have a Nothing Phone 3 running Shizuku and am waiting for Google to move Play Integrity off of its Kanban board so I can root again. Their forums have a strong development presence and as far as I'm concerned this is the one of the last good holdouts on this new restriction standard.

Pixel was the de facto standard for unlocked bootloaders. However, Google is the core of the "registered developers only" movement for their phones, killing sideloading and removing Pixel images from the development models in AOSP. I no longer support new Pixels (certain used ones are still good, don't get the 6 series though they are BAD).

[-] pandorabox@lemmy.world 1 points 6 days ago

Oooo ill check out the nothing phone! Thanks for tips!

[-] Thedogdrinkscoffee@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 week ago

Why is Fairphone no bueno?

[-] neon_nova@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 1 week ago

I don’t have one, but I think they are overpriced for the specs you get.

Their goal is sustainability, but the outdated specs means I’d probably upgrade more frequently than I would with an iPhone where I can upgrade less often.

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[-] dink@lemmy.world 11 points 1 week ago
  1. Buy Pixel 9a (great value among new, 120Hz smartphones)
  2. Activate, setup service
  3. Unlock bootloader
  4. Install grapheneos using their install guide
  5. Lock bootloader

Good budget(ish) switch to get a good phone, privacy, security, and AOSP experience.

[-] JamesBoeing737MAX@sopuli.xyz 5 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Great value my ass, I can barely get a used pixel 8a for 300€ in the EU. Redmi 4x from 2017 costed 160€ new and had all the features of phones at the time (except NFC). I'm still considering a pixel just for GrapheneOS, just because it's that good compared to LOS, I use on the Redmi.

[-] LAN_Mower@lemmybefree.net 7 points 1 week ago

I'm sure it's a good value for some. I just use the super budget phones. They work fine and have more stats than I ever need.

[-] utopiah@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 week ago

Have a CMF1 from Murena for few months now, pretty happy with it. 350EUR with unlocked bootloader and rooted, used it as daily driver since day one. Transition from iOS was surprisingly painless.

[-] solrize@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 week ago

Less expensive than I expected, but no headphone jack, no SD slot, comes with /e/OS.

In the end any mobile phone is inherently privacy invasive because of tracking by the cellular carrier, and the unending security bugs in the software. It's hard to do much about this.

[-] utopiah@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 week ago

no headphone jack, no SD slot, comes with /e/OS.

  • I personally didn't need jack but I understand it might be problematic for some. If you create music for example you might not want the latency but for that I have a dedicated PBG-1 (OSHW grove box) which does have jack. FWIW there are USB-jack adapters.
  • it has an SD slot, I have a .5To inside
  • comes with /e/OS was the point for me. I wanted a deGoogle Android without any tinkering. If you don't want that though you can buy straight from CMF but I don't know with what ROM they will ship.

In the end any mobile phone is inherently privacy invasive because of tracking by the cellular carrier, and the unending security bugs in the software. It’s hard to do much about this.

  • if you don't trust cellular carriers you can setup your own network, e.g. https://www.crowdsupply.com/ukama/ukama but... yeah that's a bit demanding and obviously nobody else will connect to it. You can use eSIM but still have to trust the resulting carrier. You can rely on WiFi only but same, trust the ISP or encrypt everything you can, have your own VPN elsewhere and hope you can go through deep pack inspection
  • on bugs in software... but I like https://www.crowdsupply.com/sutajio-kosagi/precursor is exploring the idea, pragmatically, of verifying the whole stack, hardware included, but it doesn't go to mobile packed. One could consider this with simpler modem equivalent, e.g. LoraWAN, but with the obvious bandwidth limitation. None of that removes bugs but if the entire stack is verifiable at least it's about genuine bug, not backdoors.
[-] bilb@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 week ago

A headphone jack is just another attack vector! Use your head!!!

[-] gravitywell@sh.itjust.works 7 points 1 week ago

Consider if you truly need root on your device because its more of a risk then a benefit in most cases these days. Most features that used to require root no longer do or have more secure alternatives

Another consideration is that while you can buy a phone with grapheneos preinstalled, it's much better if you take the time to do the web install yourself because anyone selling preinstalled phones could potentially be a honeypot.

Pixels don't include bloat other than google, installing grapheneos is a simple and easy process you can do from your browser, unfortunately that's about the only truely secure option available currently any other devices (ie fairphone) will be a trade off of less/slower security updates and/or lack of ability to relock the bootloader.

[-] anon5621@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 week ago

None currently ,closest is pixel with for now easy unlockable bootloader

[-] PrincessCory@lemmy.wtf 5 points 1 week ago

Graphine os, am not sure if its rooted.. But eather way i think its the best one for privacy.

[-] jet@hackertalks.com 6 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

It is not rooted, that would break the GOS security model

[-] OhtoAiReal@programming.dev 5 points 1 week ago

Very unorthadox suggestion, but those Vollaphones can come with Ubuntu Touch pre-installed. Best UI experience I had with a phone was an Ubuntu Touch. Pinephones also come with a Linux phone distro.

[-] comrade_twisty@feddit.org 3 points 1 week ago
[-] xzot746@sh.itjust.works 3 points 1 week ago

Brax phone, braxtech.net.

They are focused on privacy and no bloat. I don't have one but will be getting one when my phone needs replacing.

[-] pineapplelover@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 1 week ago

I have seen a lot of braxman's videos and he seems very knowledgeable, but I wonder why his products aren't recommended.

Can any of these downvoters tell me why?

[-] golden_zealot@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 week ago

With this question asked, I'd like to build on it and ask what options exists outside the realm of google given their recent bullshit.

For those who know, tell me about the pine phone, fair phone, anything else like this.

When google fucks shit up in the near future, I would very much like to hold on to the ability to side-load apps using obtainium and f-droid indefinitely. Are the pine phone/ fair phone reasonable for this? What pros and cons am I looking at?

[-] ironhydroxide@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 week ago

I bought a refurbished pixel with e/os already installed. Only apps pre installed were murena's small suite. Notes, app lounge, etc. minimal "bloat"

[-] DieserTypMatthias@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 week ago

Rooted

Why would you do that?

[-] LAN_Mower@lemmybefree.net 4 points 1 week ago

I may have terms mixed up. I want to be able to have full control of any software.

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this post was submitted on 19 Sep 2025
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