Most people don’t understand what is instance and do not want to do 3 step registration if they can do 2 step registration on Signal. Also, if I understand correctly, xmpp protocol and client didn’t support stickers and Signal added that feature and gifs? Not sure
Protocol and client are different. I know Cheogram has some kind of sticker thing, but I don't think it's as robust as what Signal probably has. I can download Signal stickerpacks to use on Cheogram (the xmpp client), but using them was a tad difficult.
Signal is the best intersection of genuine security and ease-of-use that I've ever seen. No choosing a server, no making an account. Just install the app, get a confirmation SMS, and now you can communicate with future-proof encryption and authentication right away.
For more technical people, who aren't going to be intimidated by things like making accounts and secure passwords and choosing servers, Signal is not the best. But when I need to communicate securely with non-technical people, it's a wonderful quick go-to solution.
With some spit and polish, I think that SimpleX could actually be very similar in that regard.
I wouldn't recommend simplex just yet because contacts are tied to servers. If the server you are using with a contact for down, you lose the contract
I'm not going to push anyone who uses a secure decentralized FOSS chat already to signal, but someone who uses telegram/viber/whatsapp is easier to get gradually on signal, which is super low effort compared to the ones you mentioned.
I've tried. I'm happy that I got friends and family to move from SMS and WhatsApp to Signal. Some I got to move to e.g. matrix but that's only a few.
Just my two cents since you asked. I agree with you but I don't want perfect to be the enemy of good.
Why is your name red
It means they are your god and you should bow. (they're an admin on your instance)
Ah.. But there is another. The all mighty creator (app developer of voyager) whose name is in purple!
I'm guessing you are using Voyager app. It's because I'm your instance (sopuli) admin :)
For most people, Not this community, it's trying to get people off Whatsapp. So even signal is better
Signal for people that partly care about privacy. SimpleX for true privacy enthusiasts
There's nothing wrong with Signal's centralization model in a worrying sense. It acts only as a clueless message relay, and it has near-zero information on any of its users, even as it delivers messages from person to person. The only information Signal knows is if a phone number is registered and the last time it connected to the server. There is great care taken to make sure everything else is completely end-to-end encrypted and unknowable, even by subpoena.
The only real issue with Signal's centralization is that if Signal the company goes down, then all clients can no longer work until someone stands up a new server to act as a relay again. Signal isn't the endgame of privacy, but it's the best we have right now for a lot of usecases, and it's the only one I've had any luck converting normies to as it's very polished and has a lot of features. IMO, by the time the central Signal server turns into an actual problem we'll hopefully have excellent options available to migrate to.
Also TMK, the only reason you still need a phone number for Signal is to combat spam. You can disable your phone number being shown to anyone else in the app and only use temporary invite codes to connect with people, so I don't count the phone number as a huge problem, though the requirement does still annoy me as it makes having multiple accounts more difficult and asserts a certain level of privilege.
Note that Signal is not a company, it's an NGO. Would you say that Wikipedia is at risk of disappearing because it's centralized?
Yep, I forgot it's not a company. The point stands though; someone has to pay for the servers and administration, and if they run out of money or the foundation falls apart, then the problem happens in the same way. I don't know much about Wikipedia's structure, but I would guess it's a similar situation in terms of needing money to stay running and also being able to be salvaged by the community if it does go down.
I totally agree with you. But!
But Signal from what I've heard really wants us to use their server.
Signal doesn't have their own servers. Instead, they rent servers from 4 companies, 3 of them is Google, Amazon, and Microsoft. So Signal is relying on Big Tech and if Big Tech decides that enough is enough, they can easily shut Signal down.
THAT is what I find most terrifying. And why not use their own server? Not enough money, but they are working on it (good).
And to make it a little bit worst: Signal depends on a third party company for sending out SMS. Your phone number is therefore handled by not Signal, but by yet another company, highly likey an American company. And they are against privacy invading companies at the same time they are one. Oh, the irony.
You want sources? Sure.
Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the idea of Signal. But there is flaws that makes Signal more privacy invading than privacy friendly.
Nobody would host a worldwide instant messaging (including a lot of data such as video) on its own servers. That would be incredibly costly and inefficient. Designing for E2E (nothing critical happening on the server) is the way to go.
to answer your question - if you wanna eventually talk to normies. like cute boy/girl you meet at a bar or a business contact from a random meet. even Signal has dogshit penetration compared to the big players, so XMPP/Matrix/Briar/etc aren't even a blip on the dradis.
also, you sorta sidestepped the UX. if you're coming off the hyper-polished world of Telelgram and iMessage, all those things have dogshit UX. yes, you'll eventually find your way around them but you have to be motivated to endure them ugly and slow and unrealiable apps (comparatively speaking); you got that shit covered, your contacts do not.
the situation is kinda like with The Linux Desktop - it's competing with gargantuan corpos with unlimited resources, and to add to that the miniscule dev teams aren't working together, they're competing, pulling in different direction (Gnome, Plasma, Cinnamon, etc.) with duplicated efforts and tons of abandoned paths. can you imagine where we'd be if all that dev effort went towards one goal?
same thing with the messenger space, it's doubtful any of them will become mainstream, but they have their uses.
Don't forget that OMEMO on XMPP has no backward decryption - all messages are lost with every new client. Massive dealbreaker for me, as I value message history between those I love.
I've gone for Matrix. Signal doesn't interest me until they get rid of the requirement for phone numbers.
Others have noted that XMPP servers hold user contacts (and maybe other parts) wholly unencrypted, and if the server isn't yours, that's a trust risk.
Signal may not be the best in a technical sense, but it is good enough and it has the network effect. I've been pleasantly surprised when in the span of a few months I met two different people actually in real life, who happened to already be using Signal.
Signal is also just as usable as the big tech alternatives, which makes it not a very hard sell to friends and family. For quite a few years now I have managed to convince everyone I communicate with to do so over Signal. There is no chance I would be as successful with something else.
yes baby steps. more important to get rid of zucc and his big brother eyes on everyone than to be 100% perfectly private from the get go.
I use XMPP, and the original idea was for it to be a family chat and a way to securely ask for things on Jellyfin.
No one uses it. (XMPP, not JF)
What's better?
No one cares. They know it's a hassle to ask for media. They know they can only ask me in person if they don't use it. They just won't bother installing a client. Can't be bothered.
Oh well, I can't be asked, then. So we sit in this perpetual state of tug of war. I can't be contacted, it's complained about, the situation is explained again, they complain again, and still never resolve the situation.
Going on three years now.
Because it's nearly impossible to convince friends and family to use anything other than iMessage or "the text app" on their phone. The process you've described is basically akin to swimming the English Channel for the general public. I'd do it. But expecting anyone else to is just a pipe dream.
I'm already a social outcast and second class citizen for not using imessage. Asking my friends and family to install a whole separate app just to communicate with me puts me firmly in weirdo territory.
I’ve used XMPP since shortly after it was developed. I still use it today.
HOWEVER, while the clients are relatively good, as long as they support the extensions you want to use, I’ve found maintaining the server to be a royal headache. Between protocol and extension improvements, security updates and general server instability, I find that it’s a constant struggle to have it running and compatible with whatever client someone is using, when someone actually uses it.
Signal, on the other hand, pretty much always works, has a single client, and nobody has to worry about managing the server except Signal. So as infrastructure, it makes a lot more sense.
Signal is a much better recommendation when leaving Telegram. And the OMEMO implementation concerns are something I need to consider. That unprofessional response from one of the devs is not a good look at all.
Though as a comment pointed out, control of servers is like the one main checkbox that I really need filled.
On the point about clients not being OMEMO by default or enforced. This isn't the biggest issue for me. I'm not doing crimes, but I still wouldn't want my saucy messages to be read by server admins or third parties. Whenever I message somebody, I confirm that they are the proper recipient and are using OMEMO. And the clients I found myself comfortable with all support PGP key use instead. (That would be Cheogram & Gajim if anyone was interested.)
This was a great read though, at least to me. It gave me some thoughts to consider.
I'm gonna look into what kind of threats these improper dependency versions and such might pose. Hopefully by now most of these issues have been resolved.
The biggest thing is getting people into the loop of "secure apps" before they really need it.
If I could get a single person to use Signal instead of Whatsapp... or even the nerds I know to use matrix instead of Discord...
There two kinds of nerds. Ones that are actually curious to try new things, and ones that conform and sully the name. It's like tech bros vs real IT professionals.
I think the slightly more charitable division is "nerds who want to work on the tool" vs "nerds who want to use the tool to work on something else"
Some people want their discord chat to work with little effort or errors because what they're actually interested in is some video editor, or something. And if the chat is broken, it prevents then from getting to what they really want.
I personally use XMPP, so this isn't just to clear my own name, or anything.
TBH it's worrying, but at the same time, it's better to have people on something that's somewhat Privacy-respecting.
Baby steps, you know. BTW how many here are familiar with GNU-Jami ?
I tried using Jami with a very technical friend. The android version kinda seemed to work, though a little glitchy. The desktop linux/windows version was complete garbage, completely unusable.
Many people will tell you you have to sacrifice your principles because interface, because "normies" (which is an elitist way of telling you that non-elitist people are idiots....), etc. I say: stick to your dreams!
It's not elitist, it's realist. They don't want to install Signal just as much as I don't want to install Facebook messenger.
Yes you can nag people but it will more often than not have the same effect as when people try to convince me to install Facebook messenger.
speaking of "normies" is elitist, because the term is used usually people privileged/experienced with knowledge about technology to describe people who don't have this privilege/experience. It is implying that there would be a class of (sub-)humans who are not capable of taking the same path as the person who employs this term. I stand by the term "elitist". In a world of diverse people, life-paths and needs, in my own experience everybody is capable of understanding the political reasons to use a piece of software over another one (because one company sucks, because their model of centralization is detrimental to freedom, because they got shady funding, because they pretend to be something else but bar free software authors to modify their software, because they're from the USA, etc.). Everyone has their own way of understanding these things. Everyone has some arguments that will resonate better than others. Pretty much the same way you probably decided to not install Facebook messenger. Well the good news is: everybody is capable of understanding these things. It may take time and effort, it may make elitist people realize it is not as easy as they first thought it would be, and require to fail and try again. It requires efforts and a humble approach as to listen to these people and take them where they are and walk a bit along the way with them.
My personal experience is that most people are capable of understanding such things. It may take time, but everyone is capable.
I also saw tons of elitist tech-enthusiasts and other tech-savvies "bros" not even addressing who they call "normies" out of pure lazyness, to avoid to speak outside of their own comfort zone and question their own status, and to avoid sharing their elitist knowledge.
-> "'normies' won't do that" = "i am too lazy to engage meaningfully with people who do not know the same things as i know."
That's a major part of the problem. Elitist feedback loop...
First of all normie not an insult or a derogatory term. The term "normies" is often used in many niche communities to refer to someone outside the community. It has nothing to do with being smart, privileged or experienced. It means more like "the average user" or "the typical person". Example: a person in the boardgaming community may refer to you as a normie, not because you're dumb but because you don't play hobby boardgames (check out Brass: Birmingham, what a game).
The problem isn't about comprehending the problem, most people understand that Facebook is selling their data. They just don't care. They would rather have their data sold than to have the trouble to move to yet another communication app. WhatsApp is working just fine, Facebook is sparking joy. They don't care.
"Normies won't do X" is a perfectly acceptable way to express that the hurdles are too high for the average user. The average user wants a sleek UI, a user friendly experience and most of all they want to be in the place everyone is already at. The average Joe doesn't want to be the first guy on Simple X, they actually really want the hassle free platform everyone is already at.
Also, the next great communication app is constantly changing. It used to be IRC, ICQ, MSN Messenger, Facebook Messenger, WhatsApp, Instagram, Telegram, Signal, Matrix, Simple X, Session. I'm sorry to say that the average person is not willing to migrate that often. Facebook works, their friends are already there, they stick to it. This isn't elitism, it's just stating what I see.
First of all, thank you for your recommendation. I was on the fence between Siskin IM and Monal, so I went with Monal to replace AstraChat.
I’ve used Signal before and it was fine but I prefer not to give a phone number to open an account; there are other services that don’t require it.
Speaking of services, I use Simple X, Session, Matrix and Delta Chat (occasionally). Most of my eccentric mix of family, friends and colleagues are happy to try something new or switch as long as it doesn’t require a phone number to sign up. They’re slowly leaving Signal, WhatsApp, Telegram and limiting access to their iMessage.
In my experience, Session syncs very well between my devices which makes it my favorite. I chose FluffyChat over Element because of the App Privacy in iOS.
I use Telegram. Eek? It's just my wife and I though. All these things I've heard about Telegram? Never actually seen them in mine. I have looked at groups, but I've only seen memes, crypto crap, and what look like scams ("post this in 5 Reddit threads to get invited to the actual group"). There's nothing of value out there that I've seen. So I just use it to message my wife, because texting wasn't good enough when we started using it (both our phones have RCS now) and I don't use Facebook, and she doesn't have an iPhone (so, no iMessage).
I completely reject this notion that you have to pick one and stay with it. My messaging apps include iMessage, Session, Signal, and Telegram. I also have a fork of Telegram that lets me use it from my watch (as in, it has a watch companion; official Telegram does not). I also have Discord (need it for a couple things).
I used xmpp with otr encryption... maybe also omemo, it rings a bell. This was some years ago. But it was barely usable. Otr refused to connect at times and only unecrypted worked, messages were encrypted with wrong keys or something and history became unreadable. It worked on the desktop, but then not on the phone, only with this and that client, but not those. It was a confusing mess and I had to stop using it. If it works today, thats great.
Privacy has become a very important issue in modern society, with companies and governments constantly abusing their power, more and more people are waking up to the importance of digital privacy.
In this community everyone is welcome to post links and discuss topics related to privacy.
much thanks to @gary_host_laptop for the logo design :)