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cross-posted from: https://discuss.tchncs.de/post/48813307

!!! IF YOU ARE AN EU CITIZEN, PLEASE DO THE FOLLOWING FORM !!!

https://fightchatcontrol.eu/#contact-tool

Be especially sure to select your home country's permanent representation in the Committee, but selecting everyone the website proposes is a very good idea (and done by default).

Raise your voices and flood their inbox, this might be the last chance we ever get

Source

Patrick Breyer's warning about this from 2 days ago

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[-] HaraldvonBlauzahn@feddit.org 145 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

Why is this specifically relevant to Linux users?

Well,

  • controlling end-to-end encrypted messages is only possible if either the keys/certificates are not secret (which is possible with TLS), or the software on the end-users device is not controlled any more by the user (but perhaps by law enforcement, or companies). This overturns the basis of any FLOSS software system where trust is based on transparency and user control.
  • age verification will typically done by a form of attestation, a highly problematic concept. Again, this would require to run software on the users device which can't be controlled by him or her, which is deceptively called "trusted computing". (Technically, age verification could be done by other means, but this is not what these proposals aim for).
  • in the world of public-key cryptography, which is what TLS , GnuPG, and most other modern systems are based in, encryption and digital signatures are nothing but two sides of the same coin: Who breaks encryption keys necessarily also breaks signature keys. This means it is not possible any more to sign software such as the Linux kernel, or Email clients, or browser packages. Or even banking apps or bootloaders for smart phones. Which means to give control away to the entities, groups or induviduals controlling these keys. Ironically, this will make computing lot less safe, and also undermine trust in communication networks, because communication where we can't be sure that the communicated symbols are genuine is for humans as worthless as the numbers on fake money. (As a corollary, it is also bad for business: All business is based on some amount of trust. Would you do important business with somebody if the only communication channel you have happens to be a messanger which is a compulsory liar?)

To sum up, this is a massive transfer of control.

[-] Best_Jeanist@discuss.online 21 points 2 weeks ago
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[-] ArchmageAzor@lemmy.world 104 points 2 weeks ago
[-] Shayeta@feddit.org 52 points 2 weeks ago

So am I, but they are not.

[-] MonkeMischief@lemmy.today 13 points 2 weeks ago

On your feet, comrade. This is no place to die.

[-] Minimac@lemmy.ml 11 points 2 weeks ago
[-] Tattorack@lemmy.world 83 points 2 weeks ago

Still can't fucking believe Denmark, my country, supports this. Yeah, it got revised thanks to Denmark, but it shouldn't be revised, it should be killed.

[-] Obin@feddit.org 66 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

Denmark not only supports it, it's the one country that pushes the hardest for it, and did from the start. Which seems weird from my German perspective, because I wouldn't exactly associate Denmark with a police-state, quite the opposite actually, especially compared to Germany.

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[-] mariusafa@lemmy.sdf.org 73 points 2 weeks ago

Everything good at Denmark? Why the fuck are your politicians pushing this into the EU council?

[-] SaneMartigan@aussie.zone 16 points 2 weeks ago

It seemed like such a reasonable country 12 months ago.

[-] sunbeam60@feddit.uk 13 points 2 weeks ago

Because Denmark holds the rotating EU presidency, Denmark is literally required by treaty to work towards compromise when the council cannot agree. If it wasn’t Denmark doing this work, it would be another country holding the EU presidency doing it.

It’s not really about Denmark - it’s about the entire council agreeing with a compromise the presidency has to seek.

[-] verdi@feddit.org 13 points 2 weeks ago

It was voted out, that's it. Nobody forced the danes to re-introduce the matter, especially when it was done with subterfuge.

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[-] possumparty@lemmy.blahaj.zone 10 points 2 weeks ago

because when you have fourteen parties there's bound to be at least a few fascists hiding behind the curtains. the real problem is that there's not legislation that prevents this dude from retracting and resubmitting it when it looks like it's gonna fail

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[-] mub@lemmy.ml 58 points 2 weeks ago

"outlaws anonymous communication" - This sends chills down me more than anything else I can remember. The people and organisations that benefit from this can't be trusted.

The only thing this does is control the law abiding public. Criminals are already breaking the law, and won't care. It is trivial to build an anonymous communication app. There will always be a workaround.

Anonymity, and free speak should be human rights.

[-] Draegur@lemmy.zip 13 points 2 weeks ago

Wasn't banishing anonymous communication literally what the bad guys in Mirror's Edge did? And facilitating that anonymous communication was literally the entire livelihood of the protagonist's faction?

[-] mfed1122@discuss.tchncs.de 9 points 2 weeks ago

Parkour fans rejoice as skill finally becomes useful

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[-] Engywuck@lemmy.zip 39 points 2 weeks ago

Just a question from my ignorance: but is this really enforceable, outside of mainstream apps/services? What happens if someone creates a custom app relying on a custom sever and uses it only among few trusted people?

[-] HelloRoot@lemy.lol 70 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

mainstream

is the keyword here. Mainstream is really big.

They come for the lions share first. You do nothing because you think you're unaffected. Then later they will come for you. And nobody will do anything for you either.

Of course, professional criminals like yourself (sarcasm) will find a way to escape the law. But I doubt it's nice to live on the edge of society like that anyway.

[-] HaraldvonBlauzahn@feddit.org 36 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

Just an example: Of course you can use a private email service. You don't need to give a copy of all your communications to Google Mail or outlook. Or medical data.

But what helps that, if 97% of the people you communicate with (including your doctor) use outlook or gmail, and all messages you write them are kindly stored there "for them"?

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[-] HaraldvonBlauzahn@feddit.org 36 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

For the moment, that would not be enforceable in respect to people with technical knowledge. Enforcing it would require authoritarian control and even China's Great Firewall has way to circumvent it.

On the other hand, this is already far more difficult than you might think. You could not install such an app from a server authenticated with TLS because the TLS keys might be subverted - the certification chain has national institutions as the top certificate authorities. You would also not be able to install such an app on an Android phone because Google has decided it needs developer attestation to install apps in a way accesible to end users. You can run Linux now but if all that is taken seriously, your options to run Linux might become limited. E.g. you already can't run many banking apps on phones with user-controlled OS software. Railway apps like the German one already don't work. In future, you might not even be able to use a municipial library's or bookstore's website this way.

But more to the point, the real application case for this kind of civil rights is not some nerd kids which want to play DnD or minecraft on their own server or test their self-written IRC service. The real application case is what we see in the US, people being dragged out of their house and disappearing just because of their ancestry, how they look, being poor or the area they live in. They don't have time to compile software or configure port-knocking protocols.

Somebody has called these systems of "democratic" mass surveillance uncovered by Snowden "Turnkey Dictatorship" . I for sure wish they would have been wrong.

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[-] Tja@programming.dev 33 points 2 weeks ago

Ok, the website says that Germany already opposes it. Is that outdated or what? I don't want to spam MEPs if they already agree with me.

[-] captainlezbian@lemmy.world 39 points 2 weeks ago

Spam them regardless. You want them to stay where they are and to argue firmly. Especially coming from Germany when talking about the evil of the surveillance state.

[-] Samsy@lemmy.ml 13 points 2 weeks ago

Back in the Merkel-era if Germany opposes it was over.

[-] jaggedrobotpubes@lemmy.world 30 points 2 weeks ago

A populace in which it is politically safe to even float this suggestion is weak.

[-] kilgore_trout@feddit.it 22 points 2 weeks ago

What is this Law Enforcement Working Party?
What is its relationship to the Council?

[-] termaxima@slrpnk.net 19 points 2 weeks ago

Besides the privacy implications : trying to protect children from grooming by forbidding specific apps, is like trying to treat chickenpox with concealer.

The real problem is that our society is even producing people who would groom a child.

But as always, politicians will try to "prevent" crime at the latest possible point in the action chain, instead of going back to the source.

I dont want to understate the fact that going to the source is extremely hard to do in many cases ; but maybe people would be less disinterested in politics, if we were actually choosing between different treatments - instead of different brands of concealer - to treat our various collective cases of chicken pox.

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[-] lascapi@jlai.lu 17 points 2 weeks ago

That's not a surprise, but that's sad!!

Let's continue to fight against!!!

[-] umbrella@lemmy.ml 16 points 2 weeks ago

they won't stop until they are deposed.

[-] falseWhite@lemmy.world 15 points 2 weeks ago

Un-fucking-believable 😡

Who do we need to kill?

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[-] Phoeniqz@lemmy.dbzer0.com 12 points 2 weeks ago

Will this actually happen with 9 member states opposing? I thought they need every memeber state to support it?

[-] gwl@lemmy.blahaj.zone 15 points 2 weeks ago

All that means it's that it won't become EU-wide, could still become applied in those "Yes" voters off their own initiatives

[-] kami@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 points 2 weeks ago

So after opening the link I can select my concerns, insert my name and then send, right?

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[-] Zagorath@aussie.zone 11 points 2 weeks ago

outlaws anonymous communication by requiring every citizen to verify their age before accessing a service

This is likely to be the case in practice, but technologically, it does not have to be the case.

If the age verifiers (which IMO should be the governments themselves[^1], but could also be a private third-party, as long as it's not the same as the social media company) only ever receive a blinded token representing the user, verify the user's age, and then the user brings that token back to the social media site, unblind it, and present them the signed token, there is no way for the age verifier to track which sites a person visits, and no way for the sites to have any detail about who their users are (other than what they already have).

[^1]: obviously, it actually shouldn't be anyone at all: parents should be put in charge of their own kids, and maybe given the tools with robust parental control software to handle it client-side. Government server-side age verification is just not a good option. But if we assume they're going to do that, we should at least discuss the way it could be done in the least-bad way.

[-] twack@lemmy.world 10 points 2 weeks ago

Or we just sell anonymous age verified serial numbers at gas stations like prepaid phone cards.

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[-] MonkeMischief@lemmy.today 9 points 2 weeks ago

parents should be put in charge of their own kids,

So convenient that governments and their corporate masters take such a keen interest in watching our kids, after making all their parents spend most of their lives at miserable jobs.

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[-] laurelraven@lemmy.zip 11 points 2 weeks ago

How is the Union that gave its people the GDPR is the same Union pulling this?

[-] olenkoVD@lemmy.dbzer0.com 10 points 2 weeks ago

Question for a the Fight Chat Control website: My country's primary language is not English, do I need to translate the e-mail?

[-] falcunculus@jlai.lu 10 points 2 weeks ago

Yes you should, and it would be even better to use it as a template to write it yourself.

MEPs will pay more attention to messages that seem genuine and from their voters rather than mass-produced by foreigners.

[-] HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world 8 points 2 weeks ago

if i'm not an eu citizen, what can i do to help

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml 8 points 2 weeks ago

the way things are going Europeans are gonna have to start fleeing to China to get a semblance of free speech 🤣

[-] Sizbang@lemmy.world 8 points 2 weeks ago

Just sent it, thanks for the reminder. Sent it before too an one representative actually responded which was nice.

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this post was submitted on 13 Nov 2025
853 points (99.2% liked)

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Distributions include the Linux kernel and supporting system software and libraries, many of which are provided by the GNU Project. Many Linux distributions use the word "Linux" in their name, but the Free Software Foundation uses the name GNU/Linux to emphasize the importance of GNU software, causing some controversy.

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