submitted 1 week ago by yogthos@lemmy.ml to c/canada@lemmy.ca

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cross-posted from: https://zirk.us/users/JazzyKindaFella/statuses/116063802333754119

🇨🇦 At Davos, Prime Minister
#MarkCarney declared that #Canada will "apply the same standards to allies and rivals".

In 2022 Canada barred #Russia n aircraft from Canadian airspace.

Two days ago, an Israeli plane transporting the war criminal Netanyahu flew through Canadian airspace.

https://x.com/dimitrilascaris/status/2022131495570485539

#politics #hypocrisy #Ottawa
#Palestine @palestine@lemmy.ml @palestine@a.gup.pe #elbowsup #cdnpol #quebec #ontario #toronto #montreal @ledevoir @torontostar #winnipeg @winnipegfreepress @pivot @TheBreach

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[-] AGM@lemmy.ca 7 points 6 days ago

Netanyahu should not be allowed to fly through Canadian airspace.

[-] RaskolnikovsAxe@lemmy.ca 1 points 5 days ago

You'll forgive some in this thread, I'm sure, for doubting that any good faith discussion with the OP can be had on the topic of Western values. Their post and comment history is clear. When your pro-socialists leanings have you defending Russia in Ukraine, it somewhat taints your criticisms of Canada's standards when it comes to a nuanced diplomatic matter like this.

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml 1 points 5 days ago

You're saying that engaging with reality instead of simply guzzling propaganda against the designated adversary is unwelcome in liberal bubbles?

[-] RaskolnikovsAxe@lemmy.ca 1 points 5 days ago

I'm saying that you and others in this thread are starting from wildly different fundamental beliefs and values, and, to put it kindly, they are divergent enough that they are effectively different realities.

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml 1 points 5 days ago

Your original claim that having different understanding of things somehow taints criticisms of Canada implies that there's a set of accepted views that cannot be challenged or diverged from. That's a description of an echo chamber.

[-] RaskolnikovsAxe@lemmy.ca 1 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

What's your criticism here? Is it possible that your criticism is unfounded or missing some key considerations? What evidence would convince you?

Your original claim that having different understanding of things somehow taints criticisms of Canada implies that there's a set of accepted views that cannot be challenged or diverged from. That's a description of an echo chamber.

Yeah they're called foundational values. I believe that people should be free to do as they wish as long as it doesn't intrude on the right of others, for example. Foundational principles of a Western liberal democracy. I don't believe you do, and so I don't trust that you come to have a good faith discussion on anything related to the well being of Canada insomuch as it persists as a Western liberal democracy.

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml 1 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

What’s your criticism here? Is it possible that your criticism is unfounded or missing some key considerations? What evidence would convince you?

Be specific, which of my criticism are you claiming to be unfounded, what key considerations am I missing?

Yeah they’re called foundational values.

Values held in face of material reality is just dogma. For example, let's take your claims about liberalism. It is an ideology that exists to justify capitalist relations that emerged as a counter to feudalism. It consists of two main parts. First is political liberalism which focuses on individual freedoms, democracy, and human rights which you're referring to. However, there is a second economic aspect to the system which centers around free markets, private property, and wealth accumulation. These two aspects form a contradiction. Political liberalism purports to support everyone’s freedom, while economic liberalism enshrines private property rights as sacred in laws and constitutions, effectively removing them from political debate.

Liberalism literally justifies the use of state violence to safeguard property rights. It puts the interests of capital over those of ordinary people directly contradicting the promise of fairness and equality you stated. Liberalism treats private property as a key aspect of individual freedom, and uses that as justification for the rich to keep their wealth while ignoring the needs of everyone else. The talk of freedom and democracy is just a fig leaf to provide cover for justifying capitalist relations. Your conflation with wellbeing of Canada with liberalism is itself profoundly dishonest. The whole notion that your personal vision of Canada is the only valid one is perverse. Different people have different views and values, and your values have no privileged position. If the system you promote leads to mass destitution, then it is right to question it. Decades of liberal rule created an economy where majority of people can't even afford a home anymore. That's a failed system.

People like you are cultists. You are fundamentally incapable of criticizing the western liberal system or seeing obvious problems with it. Instead of honestly engaging with criticism in good faith, you use ad hominem to shut down discussion, and retreat into your fantasy world. People like you are literally destroying Canada because you stand in the way of any meaningful change.

[-] Scotty@scribe.disroot.org 5 points 1 week ago

Netanyahu is a war criminal, and so is Putin.

But Dimitri Lascaris has a different view apparently. He has been conveying each single piece of pro-Russian propaganda bs since the invasion of Ukraine and supports the Kremlin. This person is a disgrace.

[-] ZiggyTheZygote@lemmy.ca 4 points 1 week ago

Jizzrael owns the world and Zionism is a cancer that should be stopped.

[-] Glide@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 week ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

Sorry, was Carney Prime Minister in 2022? What kind of idiot take for a hypocritical gotcha is this?

Fuck Netanhyahu, but talk about poor reading comprehension and posting in bad faith.

[-] AGM@lemmy.ca 5 points 6 days ago

The PM is just the leader of our government for a time, but the government has continuity. We are not under the rule of the whims of PMs. Policies are formed that have continuity with government and extend beyond whoever happens to be leader of the party with the most seats at a given time. The NOTAM for Russia is still in effect. It is a total and indefinite ban by the Canadian government, not a PM.

There is no NOTAM for Israel. The Carney government should act to correct this. The fact that Netanyahu is not under domestic sanctions in Canada and can freely traverse our airspace, as can any Israeli flight, should be corrected.

It is an obvious double standard that Canada's government is responsible for. It's made even more jarring in that Canadian airlines have been banned from the massive airspace of Russia, which is a substantial consequence, but the potential of being banned from Israeli airspace is trivial, and yet we haven't done it.

If you want to say "the ban in 2022 wasn't on Carney's watch and maybe this issue hadn't come to his attention before, so cut him some slack," okay, sure. But, now that Netanyahu has flown through Canadian airspace under his watch, what's he going to do?

[-] Glide@lemmy.ca 0 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

See, this is actually a good argument.

Aren't NOTAMs specific per-flight? I've heard the term from two pilots in my life, but I'm not personally familiar with them. I was under the impression that they do not function as standing orders, meaning the specific 2022 incident was, well, specific to that incident. If there's a continuous no-fly rule for all Russian aircraft in effect, that'd have been a much more useful point than calling the one specific event.

And, for the record, I'd love to see the policy regarding Israel's flights in Canadian airspace changed. I just fail to see the hypocrisy in one event 4 years ago under a different government. If there has been a standing no-fly order since, well, that does in fact change things.

[+] yogthos@lemmy.ml -7 points 1 week ago

Seems like you're the only one with poor reading comprehension, and utter lack of critical thinking skills. Canada set a standard with Russia in 2022,/Carney is not applying the same standard to Israel today.

Let me know if you need me if that's still too difficult for you to wrap your head around, and you need me to use smaller words.

[-] Glide@lemmy.ca 8 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

What part of "Carneys government isn't responsible for what Trudeau's government did in 2022" is hard to understand? Two different governments following two different standards with a 4 year gap between events is not hypocrisy.

The argument you are posting is incorrect, and intentionally dishonest. Belittle me all you want; a smug sense of superiority won't make you correct. Fuck off with your thinly veiled anti-Canada propaganda, and your childish attempts to legitimize it with infantilizing language.

[+] yogthos@lemmy.ml -7 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

Literally nobody here is making the argument that Carneys government isn’t responsible for what Trudeau’s government did in 2022. That's just an idiotic straw man you keep trotting out to distract from the fact that there's no consistency in the policy. Last I checked, Carney's stance on Russia is the exact same as that of Trudeau's government in 2022.

The only one being incorrect and intentionally dishonest here is you, as you've been in every single interaction I've had with you. You're a deplorable troll and you should be deeply ashamed of yourself.

The fact that you still think you'll run me out of here by clowning around really highlights the quality of your intellect. Get used to me posting here. Really looking forward to seeing more tantrums form you.

[-] Glide@lemmy.ca 2 points 6 days ago

Literally nobody here is making the argument that Carneys government isn’t responsible for what Trudeau’s government did in 2022.

I am. I am making the argument that Carney doesn't need to be consistent with Trudeau's politics. Your post relies on the readers to forget that Carney wasn't in charge in 2022. Once this fact is made clear, the only feasible defense is that he has to to be consistent with his predecessors politics, else he is a hypocrit. This is untrue and dishonest, and you continue to provide nothing but personal insults in defense of that.

Get childish and defensive all you want. This is not about driving you out. This is about making sure the lies you spread have a top level comment that highlights the lies and demonstrates the truth instead. I've happily been quite successful in that, and your attempts to belittle me only demonstrates how bothersome this is to you.

Continue to try and bully me all you want. This is not your instance, and you cannot silence the truth with insults, nor attacks on my character. This truely demonstrates why other instances rely so heavily on banning people with dissenting opinions: you have no argument, just lies, propaganda, and bully tactics.

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml -2 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

Except, as I've already explained, there is zero evidence Carney changed his stance on Russia. In fact, literally everything he's publicly said indicates continuation of agenda.

The only thing you're making is an artless strawman aimed at people without any critical thinking skills, which I must assume are your usual social circles.

I do love your audacity of attempting to spread your hamfisted bullshit here whole accusing me of some supposed lies. Only thing you've been successful at is demonstrating that you're utterly unhinged in your attempts to play hall monitor here.

Your mania of being prosecuted is absolutely hilarious by the way. Nobody is trying to silence.your dumb ass here, you're just a court jester for the instance.

My arguments are clear, and anybody with even minimal reading comprehension can understand them. The fact that I get under your skin is entirely your problem. Keep on throwing your tantrums, I'm here for it.

[-] Glide@lemmy.ca 2 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

You haven't explained anything. All you've done is make ad hominem after ad hominem.

If you want to make some argument that Carney is playing favorites with Israel - which, again, fuck Nathanyahu and the politics of the state of Israel - you're going to have to demonstrate that Carney has been tough on Russia while being kind to Israel. Calling up that one time 4 years ago when Trudeau told Russia to fuck off isn't "evidence," it's dishonesty. Can you point to anything, genuinely, where Carney held a double standard to Russia and Israel? Or is your argument genuinely this purely vibes based take of "well he said mean things about Russia in an interview and then let Nethanyahu fly through Canadian air space"?

I don't think you're stupid enough to think that passes as evidence. What's insulting is that you seem to think that we are, and when you get called out on it, you start childishly belittling, and attacking the character of, the people speaking to you.

But, let's be clear: your only purpose here is to spread pro-China, pro-Russia, anti-Canada propaganda, so none of this matters to you. I'll continue to happily "play hall monitor;" call me whatever names you'd like.

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml 1 points 6 days ago

I explained, very clearly and repeatedly why Carney is applying double standard in his stance on Russia and Israel. Also, if you're going to use terms like ad hominem, at least learn what they mean. Ad hominem would be me saying you're wrong because you're an imbecile. I've explained why you're wrong on its own terms, and I also happen to think you are an imbecile.

You continue to accuse me of lying, but here we see the height of intellectual dishonesty with you pretending that Carney has a different stance on Russia than Trudeau. Since you're the one making this fantastical claim, the burden of proof is on you. Please demonstrate any evidence at all that Carney has a different stance on Russia. Which of Trudeau's policies has Carney changed on Russia. Has he lifted any sanctions, has he changed any rhetoric, please provide evidence to support your claims. Or is your argument genuinely this purely vibes based take of “well it came to me in a dream”?

Meanwhile, I can easily point to what Carney and his cabinet have said in public regarding Russia, no such rhetoric exists regarding Israel

But let's be clear here, your only purpose is to lie and clutch your pearls like the shameless liberal that you are. I'll wait for you to provide any actual evidence to back up your fantastical story there.

[-] Glide@lemmy.ca 0 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

Oh look, a handful of the exact vibes-based "he said mean things about Russia" content that I pre-empted. Wonderful. Admittedly, I opened two and decided you're not worth any more of my time, so maybe your super secret point regarding air-space legislation that you swear you've repeated up and down is hidden halfway through the third article. But even giving you 15 minutes today was more than you deserve, so it's time to move on.

Reversing my points isn't clever. And probably look up the word "fantastical" before you start using it, particularly when I'm not the one who's weaving a tale.

EDIT - See, this is a real argument. Using, you know, consistent logic and relevant points, rather than ad hominem attacks and tangential gibberish.

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml 1 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

You are literally the only one trying to weave a tale of Carney having some break with the Trudeau government on policy. Which is in fact a fantastical idea Still waiting for you to provide a shred of evidence for the claims you made.

p.s. I love how it's immediately time for you to move on when asked to back up your claims. Couldn't be more transparent.

[-] Glide@lemmy.ca 1 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

Evidence of what? That 4 years and a government change is evidence of things changing? The other guy made the claim that there has been a standing policy since the 2022 incident, which is something you've never claimed. All I've done is point out that nothing you've claimed is evidence of anything. I don't need to prove whatever straw man you've built for me.

Sure, man. Think what you want. Unfortunately for you, I genuinely have better things to do than continue to engage with your bad faith nonsense. Tell yourself that means you "win," or whatever helps you feel smug, I guess.

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml 1 points 5 days ago

Oh I thought you were emphatically done making a clown of yourself here. I guess not. Evidence for your claim in literally your last comment:

If you want to make some argument that Carney is playing favorites with Israel - which, again, fuck Nathanyahu and the politics of the state of Israel - you’re going to have to demonstrate that Carney has been tough on Russia while being kind to Israel.

I've provided you links with official statements from Carney and his cabinet clearly stating that the policy has not changed. You're claiming there is some change, it is on you to back that idea up. What you did here was to literally make up a point out of thin air that Craney has not been tough on Russia as Trudeau has. What is your evidence?

Please, provide links to show what policies Carney changed. I asked you earlier, did he remove sanctions on Russia, did he change trade policies, or restore relations. What change has there been. You are the one making the claim that there is no continuation of policy. It is on you to substantiate that.

I have presented exactly the same argument as the other thread you're referring to, but since you lack even a shred of intellectual integrity you continue to pretend that this is somehow different.

You very clearly have nothing better to do. You've exposed yourself as a liar, and multiple people called you out. Now you're doing the whole 'I have better things to do' jig when asked for evidence. Pathetic!

[-] Glide@lemmy.ca 0 points 5 days ago

No one else has called me anything, but okay. Enjoy winning imaginary arguments against straw men.

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml 0 points 5 days ago

I love how all you do is pearl clutching, but can't actually engage with the substance of what's being said to you

[-] KindnessIsPunk@lemmy.ca 2 points 6 days ago

Is this an LLM, I just cannot fathom these takes being unironic and if they are, please, please go outside.

[-] Glide@lemmy.ca 2 points 6 days ago

I've been suspicious of Yog throwing shit into an LLM a few times now. The changing writing style between posts definitely feels like multiple people, but it could be one person throwing a conversation into an LLM whenever they feel the need to pretend to win an Internet argument. There are quick, poorly articulated insults coming out, and then suddenly you'll get these random, long-winded tirades of the exact same thought and language patterns over and over again.

It certainly doesn't help that they've explicitly said "I should start throwing your responses into deepspeak to see if I can leave you arguing with a bot" to me once.

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml 0 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

Absolutely love how you trolls start braying about LLMs when you can't actually put together a counter point to what's being said to you. The fact that you can't process humor, really shows who's acting like a chat bot though. You are a very persistent troll, but it's ok, I've dealt with your kind before.

[-] Glide@lemmy.ca 0 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

I mean, you literally said before that you were going to turn to Deepseek to deal with me, so, something about "crying wolf," I guess.

And, real question, what humor? Like, genuinely, political shit slinging aside, what has been said that's supposed to be funny? Surely you don't mean your tirade of childish insults. You're not actually trying to make a "this is just a joke to me" point, are you? Even I think you're better than that.

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml 1 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

Yeah, that was me literally making a joke about you communicating in a way of a chat bot and perhaps deserving to talk to one instead of an actual human. Given that you're not able to tell obvious sarcasm, might want to get yourself checked, could be serious https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2011/04/98290/inability-detect-sarcasm-lies-may-be-early-sign-dementia-ucsf-study-shows

[-] Glide@lemmy.ca 0 points 5 days ago

Oof. The retroactive "it was just a joke, bro" defense. Nevermind, I guess. Even I thought too highly of you. Honestly, that's just too sad.

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml 0 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

If you genuinely cannot tell I was making fun of you in that thread then I really am worried for you. Do get yourself checked ASAP.

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml 1 points 6 days ago

maybe go follow your own advice there

[-] Sepia@mander.xyz 0 points 6 days ago

@yogthos@lemmy.ml

@yogthos@lemmygrad.ml

Irrespective of the content: If you're not a bot trained on absurdly toxic language you should definitely stay away from whereever you learned such behaviour. And it's also good to go out sometimes and touch some grass. Jesus Fucking Christ.

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml 1 points 6 days ago

clutch your pearls harder

[-] ILikeBoobies@lemmy.ca 5 points 1 week ago

Still not the same standard.

If Israeli aircraft are banned from Canadian airspace then the standard would show we wouldn't ground Putin for flying over Canada.

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml -5 points 1 week ago

🙄

[-] Rentlar@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 week ago

Putin should try flying to Washington if we actually want to see if there's a double standard under Carney. As much as Israel and Bibi can fuck off, this is not a gotcha as is, because by Carney's story 2022 was still during the "old world order" while nations still pretended the the US can protect us all.