I think too many people are too self conscious to join a protest. I think they're (protests) belittled too much to feel impactful, and a lot of that lies in the division falsely created by the media.
This is a weird statement coming less than 24 hours after the largest protest in the history of the country.
I feel like the point is less about size and more about the methods. I think it aims at the issue highlighted by an other comment that this protest while good doesn’t really disrupt the system.
For real, the articles I've seen about it from the other side of the pond have looked almost dystopianly Hunger Games-esque. Almost like the media was giving them a gold star for all the pretty photo-ops they'd supplied them, where no property was damaged, no police showed up, and nobody got hurt. It was kinda sickening.
Even the most lackluster, neighborhood block protest in France or the UK captures the outrage of the people more potently. Going off what I've seen, Americans seem awfully comfortable right now.
Don’t mistake awareness for comfort. We catch a lot of heat for our ridiculous levels of gun violence, but living around that many guns, in a nation where cops, ICE, and counter-protestors armed with assault rifles are just looking for an excuse to unload, you learn how far to push without causing a situation where strays are flying into the crowd. At Defund the Police and Pride we’ve had jacked up pick-ups filled with armed red necks roll coal and brandish on us in full view of the cops; nothing happened. At BLM one of them popped a shot off to spook the crowd; caught, claimed he accidentally turned the safety off, no charges. How many videos are there of monster trucks plowing into crowds? Plus, the new tactic is to show up covered in cameras, incite a fight, play victim, get the protestor arrested. Our courts are theirs and our prison system is egregiously punitive. And don’t doubt that a lot of us protesting are legally carrying. You really don’t want to see an American protest turn into a shootout, and the closer it gets to becoming one the more cautious we are about setting it off without a safety plan.
Until the other issue highlighted in that comment - that the majority of people can't afford to take the time off work to do something disruptive - is solved, I'm not sure how we get from here to there, unfortunately.
It's a problem that will start to solve itself as the economy collapses 😕, though that's when things start to get interesting.
I'm tired of living in interesting times.
It's an inflammatory comment but it's one worth repeating: a protest with a permission slip is a parade.
There is one obvious permission structure and one non obvious permission structure at play here. The first and most obvious permission structure at play here is the state, and what the state is willing to accept in the form of protest. The other, less obvious permission structure, is what we as a collective society are willing to accept and consider valid as a form of protest.
We often focus on the first without acknowledging the latter. There are some absolutely legitimate criticisms to be made of protests which seek permission from the state.
What we don't often talk about is that protest, for it to be effective, also needs to make the other members of society around you uncomfortable. the discomfort is the point, and modern protests in the US are done in a way to reduce discomfort and inconvenience for all, both the government and the protesters, but also society. And if the discomfort created isn't so bad, protest can and will be readily ignored.
The elephant in the room is that while peaceful protest worked, it was effective in a time where it was fairly novel and society didn't have great ways of compartmentalizing it. The state and society adapted tools to be able to manage the inconveniences created from protest in such a way that protest is basically 100% ineffective in the US.
If a protest is safe, it can be safely ignored. If a protest doesn't inconvenience people in a manner that causes them to change behavior, it has no teeth.
Oh so BLM didn't happen huh?
In some cities people literally set fucking buildings on fire, and guess what? It didn't change shit. Mindless fires, looting, and destruction of property doesn't mean you'll magically get the government to care. It gets all the local mom-and-pops to close and the grocery stores to leave, giving you mothing but a food desert.
I'm so fucking tired of all the EU people on Lemmy making fun of people for at least getting out there and showing others we should care. Senless violence will not solve all of our issues. Someone could shoot Trump tomorrow and sure, maybe we'd get Civil War (so fun am I right!), but that doesn't mean his chain of succession won't exist. Are we going to kill the entire fucking cabinet then?
Also isn't the UK struggling with Isreal protest arrest right now? Where's their mass violence and fires? Why don't we care about them?
I'm getting fucking tired of coming onto this site to see endless outsiders eagerly jeering at us to risk our lives in a random blaze of glory that will lead nowhere without a true guide and rebellion. The gun fetishsts are not the ones who hate Trump. They fucking love him. Us normal people hate the idea of touching them. The only people willing to do a suicide mission are those who have nothing to lose, and most people aren't there. Go be Luigi, and watch how you either die or get stuck in jail limbo for decades. What did shooting the CEO change? Absolutely nothing. Our healthcare system still sucks, because this isn't a violence problem, it's a legislation issue.
Should we make fun of HK protesters for being peacful? Iran got a dictator blown to bits and is still going to be in hell.
I genuinely will be curious to see how all of these armchair rebels react if there's ever a case of mass government corruption in their country in a decade or so. I don't want for anyone to be in a situation like this, but we'll see if you keep that same attitude up when it's your lives on the line.
Have people already forgotten the summers of 2016 and 2018? I can promise you Americans can riot with the best of them.
The difference is they have the capability to completely censor riots now.
I see the propaganda is working, soon no one will remember Blair mountain or any labor history!
Protests aren't the only thing that activists in the US are doing. It's not an either or situation.
IMO peaceful protests do have an impact; however, there is a point where those stop working and more direct action needs to be taken. Problem is people don't want to out of fear of the police.
Problem is people don’t want to out of fear of the police
Is this not the point of the whole thing lol
That's like saying in 1939 "I would resist harder if not for the Nazi officers... guess I'll comply a few more years."
Exactly. It's the crux of the issue. Peaceful protests should work, and sometimes do; however, there is always the ability of the authorities to just... ignore because they have various police forces to maintain the status quo (maintain order).
Then what? What is the next course of action? Voting didn't work, peaceful protests didn't work... what next? If reforming the current system hasn't worked for the last century and more, what is the alternative?
Unfortunately our lives need to become shit enough that being beat or shot is no longer a deterrent.
Yep, but if it does reach that tipping point, it's going to get very ugly.
Imho it's on the fast track to reaching that point. It's been getting bad for years and only been accelerated over the past year and a half.
I agree it is. It's just not there yet. Speaking for myself, I still have a lot to lose. I know a lot of people in that same boat, and these people saying we should overthrow our government forget that a significant portion of the populace fully supports what the trump administration is doing and many of them work for the fucking cops. And the ones who don't support trump aren't desperate enough yet. It's going to take a critical mass of desperation before anything real changes. I wish it didn't work that way, but too many people are complacent and just fuck off whenever they're given an opportunity to vote these cunts out.
MLK’s strategy only worked because the powers that be understood that Malcom X was the alternative.
MLKs strategies were effective because they were novel and the state hadn't built up the tools to deal with them. They had been caught off guard.
The state long ago developed strategies to deal with protest including the use of media for narrative management, and the long term the socialization of "peaceful protest as the only acceptable form of protest" among left wing populations.
The state adapted and evolved to be able to safely ignore peaceful protest, and also ran a long term propaganda campaign that "peaceful protest" is the only form of protest acceptable, and even further, has propagandized to convince people it's the only form of protest even possible or effective.
MLK was effective because the state hadn't dealt with those strategies before. They adapted to deal with those strategies, then built funnels for grievances to focus exclusively on the tactics they had adapted to be able to ignore.
MLK's strategy worked because he had a big legal team as part of his organistation. He could provoke an arrest (making for photo ops), and have his legal team ready to fight the case they had prepared in advance. His strategy always involved getting sued over something and then fight it in court.
not so much police, but the fact that leaked documents that are all but official government documents showed that they're activiely planning for protests to turn violent so they can go full Stalin and start shooting, arresting, and executing people on the grounds of "fuck you that's why"
Peaceful protests only make an impact when they turn violent. And usually only when the Govt. initiates the violence. Right now the Govt. WANTS the violence because then they can declare martial law and stop the midterm elections.
Women got the right to vote through non-violence. This is completely untrue that nonviolence has done nothing. If the numbers get big enough, the government will begin to be afraid of us, again. The billionaires might be afraid again if we show up in the millions to their front door.
Ugh, look up the suffragettes - their was 100% violence
Imma leave this here from Wikipedia
Suffragette violence refers to the militant actions taken by members of the Women's Social and Political Union (WSPU) in the early 20th century, including bombings and arson, aimed at gaining women's suffrage in the UK. This campaign, which lasted from 1912 to 1914, resulted in casualties and was viewed by many as a form of terrorism, ultimately leading to a complex legacy regarding the suffrage movement's effectiveness and public perception
This led directly to the US women’s right to vote movement
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_suffrage_in_the_United_States
Yeah I'm sure the suffragettes mail bombing campaign and assassination program had nothing to do with it.
Buddy read some history first. Nothing in life is every given for free, and many people bled and died to get you the rights you enjoy today, don't let them slip away
congrats you are a victim of historical white washing.
It's not even like they don't protest (eg No Kings just now) & don't have truly inspiring figures, but damn they have to fight for every little bit of anything with way more fronts than they could ever keep up.
And as anywhere, protesting where it hurts (ie financial/power results) gets violent immediately.
Maybe that's the issue, they respect (rich people's) private property too much, and it's too well protected in various ways.
Too many people in the US keep pushing the idea that "violence never solves anything" when the opposite is absolutely true. If you want positive long lasting change, then you're gonna have to get your hands dirty with more than just glue and paint.
I laughed out loud because it’s true.
Haha yeah you guys sure did a good job at standing up to those brexit blokes!
Edit: Forgot to mention the Germans and French throwing soup at paintings. Wherever will us yanks find such creativity.
Or, we could stop believing this online bullshiteant to divide the movements and stop judging each other based on our worst examples.
That was great britain. Fuckers don't even wanna be european it seems. Their little island location sure has rotted their brains into thinking they're something special.
Just to let you know the approx stats of the population: 1/4 voted leave, 1/4 votes remain, 1/4 didn't bother turning up to vote, 1/4 weren't registered/too young to vote
Yeah I really don't know how that close of a result justified actually leaving.
iT wAs ThE wiLL oF tHe PEople!!! Based on a none binding referendum
If 90% voted leave then sure. Bit yeah we all know it was a sham
Ah yes, any successful act of violence on the system will definitely be told to me by the system, which is owned by like, 4 people. Sometime about the revolution and television
As a German, I often find the French protests inspiring. They seem enthusiastic and convinced that they can make a difference, whereas in Germany many people use their perceived insignificance as an excuse for why it’s pointless to even try.
Hungarian here, all we get is chronic alcoholism, then after enough cognitive decline, they become Fidesz supporters.
It took a depression to get people’s asses in gear last time
Well then it appears we're in luck!
I think people in America are at just the right amount of comfortable to want to protest but afraid of losing the life they have to oppression they may face for participating in the protest. Most people who aren't minorities are not directly facing the governments oppression until recently when they started shooting white people, so they can limit themselves to posting hashtags and strongly worded comments online, but active disobedience could cost them their job and thus access to semi affordable healthcare and the ability to pay their bills and debts. Aka its the system working as designed to keep the masses complacent, it will take actual starvation and deprivation to happen to the majority for them to fully participate in fighting the system
That has a name. "Cowardice".
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