Israel went wrong before it began. There is no way of displacing a population to create an ethnonationalist colony in a way that could be called "right".
Note that several prominent Jews, including Hannah Arendt and Albert Einstein, opposed the creation of a Jewish state in a 1948 letter, warning of fascism and comparing the precursor of Likud to the Nazi party.
Opinion on zionism has moved over time. Zionism started out as fringe around 1900, but now its the overwhelming majority opinion across judaism.
Also, 86% of American Jews (the vast majority of Jews -- about 85% are in the US or Israel) think Israel is necessary for the Jewish people. They may hold a handkerchief to their noses at "all the stuff currently going on", but israeli terrorism, theft, abuse and repression has been going on unbroken since the founding of israel and the nakba-- farther even-- since the ottoman empire withdrew from owning that territory for 800 years, even, at the end of WW1. They cant have it both ways. If they support the existence of israel, they explicitely support the existence as its been since it started. Since day 1 of its existence there has never been a humanitarian israel rooted in equality or basic human rights, and there never will be such an Israel. So that 86% (and sure, thats not all ) supports genocide but lacks the courage to say so. We can call it genocide-lite.
I think survey results show pretty clearly that a huge majority want the outcome of genocide but dont want to be seen supporting it. They love the idea of Israel but find the deaths of other regretable, and are happy to talk your ear off about how its inconvenient for them and how afraid they are-- as if that could hold a candle to whats been done to the innocent people Israel wanted land from. Their theory is that the real vicitms here are them, even as a vast majority of them explicitly or implicitly support genocide, often from existences of day to day 110% safety-- more than any other minotiry group-- where they may only ever experience having to deal with a political opinion on a blog that they find objectionable, which they feel like they can then frame as a bodily attack on their very existence.
What needs to happen is some form of adult government installed in the Levant, not the theocratic fascist ethnostate that is Israel. A violent ethnostate is going to continue to cause global terror and mass conflict. They cant be permitted to rule, because they have shown the world they cant be trusted to do it without rampant murder.
Haven't read the book, but the title suggests things could have been different. That something happened to make things bad. If that's the argument, it is completely wrong. Israel could have turned out no other way. Extermination is the only possible outcome of a colonial ethno-state.
Zionism was a White Jewish Supremacist ideology from the very start and Israel was a White Jewish Supremacist and Colonialist project from the very start.
It didn't become so, it was always so and always meant to be so, the only thing that changed was the feeling of impunity to push-back from Western nations as, over time, Israel invested a lot abroad into capturing Politics and the Press, into Kompromat gattering Honeypots such as the one headed by Epstein, and into in Propaganda, especially in Anglo-Saxon nations, thus capturing the political classes there and shifting Western public opinion in favor of Israel. As that feeling of impunity increased, so did they more freely, openly and violently practiced their ethno-Fascist (same variant of Fascism as the Nazis) ultra-racist ideology against those they very openly called "vermin" - Muslims in general, especially Palestinians.
They have and always have had, as they themselves say, "Western Values", specifically late 19th century white colonialist values and early 20th century white supremacist ones.
PS: And if anybody has any doubt on the White part of their supremacist ideology, just look up the treatment of Black Jews from Ethiopia by the state of Israel, which included amongst other things forced sterilization.
"Became"
There were idealistic, non- (or at least less) ethnochauvinist strands of Zionism through most if its history, alongside the colonialist, genocidal factions. Those less toxic groups have been disempowered and marginalized, and now the thugs dominate.
Some (and I'm among them) are of the view that, regardless of the benign motivations of some, the logic of colonialism and single-ethnicity nationalism will always cause it to reach this end state. Using an example from the Americas, there were priests among the conquistadors who opposed the genocide of the Aztecs. They were well-meaning people who wrote some nice books. The genocide still happened.
I think the "mistake" started with the formation of Israel. I can understand the founding of their state after WWII, and their desire for a place where they can live without persecution. But, the location was a huge mistake if the goal was "peace".
Dropping them in the middle of their Holy Land? Automatic war for as long as they are there. Now, many are under the impression that they really are "God's Chosen People" and all of their desired "Holy Land" righteously belongs to them.
I think what is happening today was the desired outcome of Israel's foundation. USA and UK were perfectly fine with the Jews and Muslims fighting to the death, no matter who "wins", whatever is left will be all the easier for them (Christians incidentally) to control.
personally, I am opposed to Christians, Jews, and Muslims, to me there are no "good guys" to be found in the "Holy Land".
ETA Israel is a nuclear power now, remember that when you propose "solutions".
1945: A part of Germany should have been disposessed, a jewish state founded on this territory, and this Jewish state given nuclear arms, in case any fuckin Kraut ever had "ideas" again. End of story. Would have saved Jewish people and the Palestinian people a lot of horror. Would have saved me as a German many fuckin bonkers discussions with German bigots who all are so conveniently defending a jewish state (not on their land).
Israel didn't form because of WWII or because of Germany. The big aliyah waves started in the 1800s, and the Holocaust just accelerated what was already in motion. The Soviet Union, the Ottoman Empire, the colonized Arab areas of North Africa were all extremely antisemitic, just as much as Germany. The only difference is that Hitler made mass murder industrial.
Nope, Jews were living peacefully side by side Muslims in Arab countries in pre-Israel times. This is confirmed by Holocaust scholars like Omer Bartov. Antisemitism is historically something deeply European. It has been exported to Arab countries. Most notoriously via Amin al-Husseini. Israel would never have been founded the way it was, i.e. as a jewish ethno-state or maybe would not have been founded at all without the Holocaust.
The mistake is that zionists decided to force a state on the local people instead of living along the locals are a single people
In 1884 the first Yemenites settled in Silwan and for 45 years lived peacefully and on very good terms with their Arab neighbors. It seemed that the people of Silwan, which was known to be a poor village, found common ground with the poor Jewish Yemenites that lived among them.
Despite the attempt to depict the 1929 Arab Riot as a violent incident against the Jews in Silwan, it is clear that it was not the case. From a letter of gratitude that the Yemenite Jews sent to their Arab neighbors, we can learn about the devotion and benevolence that the Arabs have shown towards the Yemenites by undauntedly protecting them, and also about the amity and good neighborly relations that prevailed between the two communities.
There's definitely no good guys. If you read into the history of the region, you'll quickly realize that there was never a "rightful" or "righteous" ruler. The ancient Persians, the Romans, the Turks, the Assyrians, the Arabs, the British, and the Israeli Jews have all been horrid. Genocide, oppression, slavery, ethnic cleansing, terrorism, deep seated hatred, and the idea of "if I don't do fuck them over first then they'll come after me" is the norm in this cursed region.
This was an interesting read.
Especially his speculation that lack of a clear constitution (Basic Law was adopted as late as 1994 and is not a full-fledged constitution) and lack of clear borders contributed to Israel's fall into the current state.
Too generous US "security assistance" certainly helped. If you can solve a problem with bombing without worrying about getting bombed, you may start thinking of war as a normal thing.
Failure to contain the populist extreme right is another stumbling block. If there had been no Netanyahu (and his corruption scandals, and the court cases awaiting him domestically, filed a considerable time before the ones awaiting abroad), things might be different.
Ultimately, I would say: Israel failed to install brakes, and failed to contain its greed for power and land. It had too much cooperation and still has too much cooperation.
I don't know if there's a reasonable way out.
don’t know if there’s a reasonable way out.
the way out need not be reasonable for the zionists. They are not due "reasonableness" at this point. Justice and peace needs to be restorative to the victims, not reasonable in the eyes of the criminals. The dead cant be brought back can they? How are zionists going to find a way out of that, beyond paying with their own blood? We're all open to their suggestions, but they arent even interested in coming to the table and never have been.
and
If there had been no Netanyahu
Go back and read about ben gurion and the start of Israel. Its never been reasonable, they always knew they were using terorristic means, theft and murder. They used to be more honest about it. Netenyahu is just the latest in 90 years of these violent supremecist murdering thieves.
https://www.progressiveisrael.org/ben-gurions-notorious-quotes-their-polemical-uses-abuses/
How is this any different from the mentality that the Israeli far right uses now? This reads to me like collective punishment. The reality is that Israel is not going anywhere. The country is already established and it has a big distinct population, institutions, and culture. You can't destroy it. Like what is even the thought process here? To ethnically cleanse 7 million people to counterbalance previous ethnic cleansing? That's just the classic an eye for an eye mentality. The goal should always be to see Israelis and Palestinians living together in peace with everybody having the same rights and freedoms, not to carry out some weird vendettas for some misguided sense of justice held by westerners.
Who would have thought that the lesson they learned from the Holocaust was to Pay It Forward?
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