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submitted 7 months ago by Frank@hexbear.net to c/games@hexbear.net

I've been trying to be helpful on the Helldivers sub. When people say "X is impossible and Y needs to be nerfed/buff I'd go earnestly say "okay this is how it works, and these are the tools you have, and here is how you can use those tools to solve the problem or succeed or overcome the situation.

And, invariably, what I get back is abuse and scorn and insults and incredulity. The poster, and the hundreds of people supporting them, don't want the solution to be within them. They don't want to hear that they have not mastered game systems, that they don't understand how the weapons and enemies work, that they're making mistakes that can be corrected or that they can learn new tactics that will grant them victory.

The problem cannot lie in them. The problem must be external. The game must be broken, or bugged, or the devs must be fools. They are good enough and skilled enough and smart enough to play on the highest difficulty, but they cannot win, so the highest difficulty is broken and the devs must mechanically reduce the difficulty until they can easily, effortlessly conquer, until their "power fantasy" of unlimited unearned prowess can be restored. If they are challenged, if they face difficulty, if they face hardship, that is a flaw in the game. All obstacles must be smoothed down. Their favorite weapon should be the ideal choice for all situations.

At first I was overjoyed at the opportunity to share my knowledge and expertise, to help others learn what I had learned and enjoy the sublime feeling of mastery.

Then i was confused, because the rejection of simple tactics, simple explanations of systems and ideas, must mean I was not communicating clearly enough. Surely, if I only found the right words?

Then, anger. Why won't they engage with these ideas? Why do they reject simple explanations clearly explained? Why do they insult and berate instead of questioning or interrogating? Where is the desire to grow, to overcome, to perfect?

Finally; contempt. I do not care. These fools, let them stew in their own ignorance and misery. What can be said to them? They cannot be educated, not because they are illiterate, but because they refuse the mere possibility of education. They refuse to accept the world as it is, instead demanding from god the utopia they surely deserve.

What can you say to someone like that? What can you do but sneer "git gud" and move on?

I'd never really questioned where the "git gud" cliche that Dark Souls players threw around so mercilessly came from. But now I suspect that I know.

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[-] Awoo@hexbear.net 43 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

I don't understand the problem. Every single difficulty of this game is very doable even for average players.

The main problem you face most of the time is that dying has a snowball effect, when you die you drop your equipment and it's usually in the middle of a swarm. Recovering from that at the highest difficulty usually costs tonnes of lives. This frustrates people but it's a part of the game, it wouldn't be "hell" without it. Millions of lives are supposed to be lost in the pursuit of democracy, players dying a lot is essential to the satire of the game.

One problem I think I see among the audience is that people have no emotional self-control. They do not know how to cope with dying. They have a very poor mental game. And when they get tilted they play worse and worse and worse too.

The other problem I see with players is that they simply are not shooting enough. So often I see them wasting time staring at the enemy instead of firing their gun at the enemy or throwing an airstrike. 5 seconds is the time it takes to put down 15 bugs that are on screen right now but instead you just looked at them and jogged in a different direction. SHOOT. Crowd clearance is an essential part of the game and every member of the squad needs to be doing as much crowd clearance as possible as often as possible.

The last problem is aggroing enemies that are not aggro'd. Stop that. It's totally unnecessary, and every non-aggro'd group should be engaged initially with an airstrike as the opening to the engagement anyway.

[-] Frank@hexbear.net 20 points 7 months ago

One problem I think I see among the audience is that people have no emotional self-control. They do not know how to cope with dying. They have a very poor mental game. And when they get tilted they play worse and worse and worse too.

Agreed. And I think the new respawn rules have exacerbated it to an extent. In HD1 there were no lives. As long as reinforcement was off cooldown, and someone managed to get off the strat before they got run over by a charger, all dead teammates would reinforce. If you wiped you wiped, and that was it. But if you were holding the strat when a tank blew you up it would hit hte ground and call everyone in. That made the team's survival critical, while the individual's survival was not very important. In HD2, with limited lives and very long reinforcement cooldown after you run out, the individual's survival becomes much more important and losing a life actually hurts the whole team. In HD1 it was sometime beneficial t blow yourself up if you were trapped on the wrong side of a swarm or illuminate barrier so the rest of the team could escape (screen tethering). You can't really get away with that now.

[-] Sephitard9001@hexbear.net 6 points 7 months ago

I don't know if they fixed it yet but there was definitely something wrong with the difficulty of the missions to extract scientists on Automaton planets. You needed to get lucky on top of having a highly coordinated 4-man team to trick the AI into not attacking the facility to MAYBE barely scrape by a victory. Those mission types would drop like 3-4x the normal amount of enemy reinforcements on top dropping more than normal amounts of the heaviest units. It was like 20x more difficult even on lower difficulties than the civilian rescue counterpart missions you would see in other operations.

[-] Awoo@hexbear.net 6 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

They did deploy a fix for something on them, but it never really changed the difficulty. They're supposed to be that hard I think.

These are planetary defence missions so I suspect they're intentionally very hard to prevent players from stopping the AI from ever moving forwards with the war. That mission does not exist on Liberation planets that are already owned by the enemy.

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[-] replaceable@hexbear.net 36 points 7 months ago

The problem cannot lie in them. The problem must be external. The game must be broken, or bugged, or the devs must be fools.

Very common in LOL community, there even is a conspiracy theory that there exists losers queue which is matchmaking intentionally matching you with bad players to reduce the winrate down to 50%

[-] The_Jewish_Cuban@hexbear.net 24 points 7 months ago

I thought losers queue was just a way to trash talk your teammates. Like you happen to have a few bad games and so then when your team sucks again they say "I must be in loser's queue". As in, my team is so bad. People actually believe that's a game system?

[-] replaceable@hexbear.net 17 points 7 months ago
[-] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 8 points 7 months ago

Isn't that legitimately in dota2? Where it matches you with other toxic players or smt?

[-] replaceable@hexbear.net 10 points 7 months ago

I dont know, but even if there is, that doesnt mean there is losers queue in league

[-] SSJ2Marx@hexbear.net 18 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

DOTA2 has a "low priority penalty" that it applies to your account temporarily if you get reported by many people in a short amount of time. Aside from that the DOTA2 community has some absolutely wild superstitions about how matchmaking works.

[-] ProfessorAdonisCnut@hexbear.net 7 points 7 months ago

My low-stakes conspiracy theory is that you get prioritized higher in matchmaking if you quickly click okay on that alert that comes up if you wait for 10 minutes, since it proves that you're still around and will actually join a game

[-] MolotovHalfEmpty@hexbear.net 30 points 7 months ago

I think the type of people to continually post like that on subreddits etc have already made their choice. When I'm struggling to get better at something I'm usually reading other people's posts and advice, not posting myself to complain. If there is something specific I really can't understand how to do, I'll ask about that specific thing and take the advice I get. I suspect most people making posts like you describe are just their to vent and complain and don't really want help, hence their shitty reaction to you.

Personally, as an old who likes games but doesn't invest much time into getting good at them, I don't get why people are so worried about sucking. Especially in a PvE game. Especially, especially in a PvE game where the idea that you're actually idiotic canon fodder beneath all the ooh-rah bullshit is thematically baked in.

I just wish I had something that would play Helldivers. It seems like a game I'd really enjoy being rubbish at. And if someone helped me get better too, then cool.

[-] Frank@hexbear.net 22 points 7 months ago

With Helldivers, the game is very challenging and demanding on the player and the team. You can suck as long as you cooperate with your team and can contribute to success, but having one or two people on the team who don't understand how to play can really hurt the experience for everyone.

A core example is enemy patrols - Enemy groups patrol the map. If they see you they will call in an unlimited number of reinforcements. under most circumstances the reinforcements will never stop coming. If a player understands this they'll deal with any immediate threats and run away. The goal is to complete the objectives, enemies are an obstacle to completing that goal.

But players who don't understand that, who think they're playing a horde shooter, or who stubbornly believe that the in-game propaganda about Helldivers being one person armies is how you're supposed to actually play, they'll just sit there and keep fighting and keep fighting and keep fighting until they get overrun. At best, the rest of the team leaves them behind to die by themselves. At worst they constantly aggro enemies all around, making the mission much much harder for no benefit.

In a PvP game you can shuffle teams to make sure no one is always on the losing side. but with a challenging, demanding PvE game there's no fairness. The game is trying to kill you, and Helldivers in particular doesn't have a merciful AI director tasked with challenging you but not overwhelming you. Helldivers wants to kill you. A team can handle one or two players who aren't very good at shooting or struggle to consistently call in air strikes, but only one or maybe two, and only if they otherwise understand the game loop and are able to work with and contribute to the team. Four skilled individuals, playing as individuals, who don't cooperate are going to struggle. Any number of unskilled individuals who are not cooperating with the team are going to make things much much harder for everyone.

It's a team game that requires teamwork and cooperation in a way that most games don't.

Have you tried HD1? There's a small but steady community and it's a great game. In a lot of ways HD2 is HD1 in 3d, with the majority of systems and concepts intact.

[-] Awoo@hexbear.net 22 points 7 months ago

If they see you they will call in an unlimited number of reinforcements. under most circumstances the reinforcements will never stop coming. If a player understands this they'll deal with any immediate threats and run away.

They're not really unlimited, breaches have a cooldown and another breach can not be called until that cooldown is up. The issue is that 1 person can't clear a breach wave before the next one is called in by themselves, so groups often get overrun if they're split between people focusing the objective vs people who want to clear waves fully.

A 4 person group that actually fights off these waves can completely fight them off and make the fighting go cold. A single individual can not. Groups should decide whether they're gonna be the run n gun objective hunting type of lobby or the full clear type of lobby before they launch the pods.

[-] Frank@hexbear.net 10 points 7 months ago

Good to know! I've been trying to puzzle that out for weeks. There's so much to learn about the game.

[-] Awoo@hexbear.net 9 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

It can be used tactically. If a breach just got called elsewhere you know you have a window in which another one will not be called at you location, so whatever you see around you is finite or based on existing holes that can be closed. It's why some groups run 2-2 just to split the breaches, and why simply 1 person acting as distraction while others do objectives can make runs very fast with a good squad.

I don't think there's any difference in the timer between breaches on different difficulties either. I think it simply alters the quantity of enemies.

[-] The_Jewish_Cuban@hexbear.net 13 points 7 months ago

I just play on the lower difficulties so I can just pretend I'm playing doom. I might try to play with how you're saying though. Getting all four of your teammates together is like herding cats usually.

[-] Frank@hexbear.net 8 points 7 months ago

Very true. Playing Solid Snake sneaky spy mode calls for different tactics, but i find it quite rewarding. Calling in an airstrike on a patrol and wiping them out before they can alert, or creeping up on an installation and bombarding it with massive amounts of airstrikes, styealing everything, then running away before the enemy can retaliate makes me feel like a bad ass commando.

And even when you do your best to stealth a mission, there's always points where you have to fight like hell!

[-] MolotovHalfEmpty@hexbear.net 12 points 7 months ago

I can certainly see that. When I have dabbled in games I'm likely to struggle with but enjoyed, most notably Apex Legends for a while, it's always my instinct to learn what I can and be a team player. I've never had a problem following other people's lead, playing support, that sort of thing. And I've nearly always enjoyed it without seeming to inspire any ire from my teammates (although admittedly I pretty much never use voice chat with randoms).

I did play HD1 actually, back when it first came out (early PS4 I think?) and immeadiately enjoyed it, although always struggled to get past my own issues with top-down twin-stick coordination. I have mild, but diagnosed, dyspraxia and tend to be better at games with a first-person/over the should POV so that's a big part of the appeal of the sequel for me. Perhaps eventually it'll come to other platforms or I'll finally shell out for a PC that can do modern gaming instead of just work and older stuff. I appriciate the recommendation though!

[-] MorelaakIsBack@hexbear.net 26 points 7 months ago

"git gud" didn't come from Dark Souls (although dark souls is wedded at the hip to the concept). git gud started when i was in high school and multiplayer shooters hit their golden era (Halo 2, CoD:MW, etc) and a massive influx of casual gamers made matchmaking lobbies into shooting galleries for strong players. it became a pervasive meme across all gaming when nintendo released the Wii and Super Smash Bros: Brawl, which pulled in a huge crowd of - again, casual - gamers that had heard of SSB but didn't get a lot of hands-on time with it, and put them into contact with tryhards that had sunk thousands of hours of practice into the previous iterations on gamecube and n64

[-] Frank@hexbear.net 21 points 7 months ago

I think you're right about the casual/hardcore dichotomy. People who view a game as something like an interactive TV show - you're a participant, but you shouldn't be challenged or asked to learn anything, it's just idle passive entertainment. Vs. "hardcore" gamers who want to understand the system, dismantle it, put it back together, and then apply that knowledge to attaining systems mastery.

[-] jack@hexbear.net 22 points 7 months ago

these dorks don't have the spirit of OG Helldivers players and just want the new popular thing to play itself

they need to git gud

[-] gitgud@lemmy.ml 11 points 7 months ago

Totally agree

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[-] Babs@hexbear.net 22 points 7 months ago

I am bad at this game so I simply play at the lower difficulties where my clumsy strategies work.

[-] jack@hexbear.net 6 points 7 months ago

I love the clarity of the difficulty ranks for this reason. I think the game shines with maximum chaos but I love that a totally chill option exists for when people want lower intensity.

[-] Babs@hexbear.net 8 points 7 months ago

Low difficulty terminids is such a good vibe, feels like a whole different game.

[-] Xx_Aru_xX@hexbear.net 18 points 7 months ago

Game is a parody of the U.S. army, players are a parody of U.S. generals and military experts lmfao

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[-] gitgud@lemmy.ml 17 points 7 months ago

My ears have been burning nonstop for hours

[-] HelltakerHomosexual@hexbear.net 11 points 7 months ago
[-] Comradesexual@lemmygrad.ml 14 points 7 months ago
[-] HelltakerHomosexual@hexbear.net 12 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

no one can replace you, beautiful meow-petted, not even if they tried. id fight them, you're my absolutely adorable androgynous commie demon.

but can you tell me that their blushing isn't even a little bit cute? C'mon just a bit?

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[-] gitgud@lemmy.ml 8 points 7 months ago
[-] HelltakerHomosexual@hexbear.net 8 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

SEE! just a lil' cutie

[-] CloutAtlas@hexbear.net 10 points 7 months ago

Skill issue, get better circulation in your ears

[-] pelotron@midwest.social 17 points 7 months ago

Wait these complainers are playing on the highest difficulty? Lol, ok.

[-] Melonius@hexbear.net 16 points 7 months ago

Isn't this just the improve-society very-intelligent discourse? There is a framework to play the game within like using stealth and clearing waves that should be understood by the players. Within that framework there is plenty of room to discuss tuning or adjustments to the weapons and stratagems.

If they are fundamentally misunderstanding how to play then yeah they should "git gud" but there are plenty of weapons and strategems that don't have a viable use in the current meta.

[-] Mokey@hexbear.net 16 points 7 months ago

I have one friend who thinks they need to take every fight and its frustrating playing with someone who refuses to think

[-] Yeat@hexbear.net 6 points 7 months ago

true but at the same time taking every fight is fun

[-] LENINSGHOSTFACEKILLA@hexbear.net 15 points 7 months ago

Another issue I'm seeing is that a lot of people are seeing those viral tiktoks to farm medals and whatnot, and that's all done on super high difficulties while everyone just brings a bunch of mortars and stays alive on the wave clear levels. The problem is they aren't ever actually playing the rest of the game, so they max their level and get a few primary weapons unlocked and think they know how to run level 9 objectives.

[-] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 15 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Isn't the proof to those dunning-krugerants that there's other players clearly winning the higher difficulties, so obviously they're worse than those are?

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[-] NephewAlphaBravo@hexbear.net 11 points 7 months ago
[-] SkingradGuard@hexbear.net 8 points 7 months ago
[-] Frank@hexbear.net 12 points 7 months ago

It can be, if you want it hard enough.

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[-] Pisha@hexbear.net 8 points 7 months ago

I like games where you can't fail :)

[-] SoloboiNanook@hexbear.net 7 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Tale as old as time. Been discussing this with fighting games forever. I've been playing fighting games very competitively for about 13 years now, and the shit u hear nowadays is very different than when I started.

When I started with mvc3, the general sentiment was "fuckin deal with it". Fighting games were not receiving a ton of patches to deal with broken or insane shit so what you got was what you got. In marvels case there was like...3 total patches over its life? And we played that shit for half a decade. If it was busted, then figure it out dummy. Or use it yourself. Also since online was busted this was all shit talked about at locals at the bars and stuff. Good times.

Over time as fighting games started simplifying concepts, and the idea of continuous updates became commonplace, weird nerds infiltrated. I don't really want to say casuals, cause there is nothing casual about these nerds thirst for validation and excuses. People who don't understand basic concepts of fighting games are demanding the absolute dumbest shit, and just cannot accept being outplayed. Hell, half the reason I play fighting games because I want it to be me and another person playing on the same stage with the same information. I'm not looking to blame anything but my own ability. This idea is not that prevalent in modern fg discourse. Just shittons of posts about "fuck this character, fuck that mechanic, this is dogshit, patch now. Netcode fucked me. It ate my inputs. Why does this character have this, why doesn't MY character have that. Shit game, trash game, all these games are bad. We need more patches."

People desperately don't want to accept that they simply have not put the time in or just aren't very good. And its ok to not be top 10 in a FG. Its actually really fucking hard. It's not ok when you feel like Bandai, Capcom, arcsys have personally robbed you and should capitulate to your poorly thought out ideas, and that none of your losses count because it wasn't your fault.

Accept the L. Accept the game and it's current state. Work with it and work around it, and play, learn, and have fun. Instead we have a bunch of players who act like they are temporarily embarrassed EVO champs lol.

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[-] GenderIsOpSec@hexbear.net 6 points 7 months ago

Reminds me of playing (too much) Warframe. Managed to get a friend try it with me, and that was a trip.

So for the uninitiated in Warframe you play as a child soldier mentally piloting a warframe that's basically a robot space ninja shell. On the higher difficulty levels the enemies will mostly one- or twoshot you, so you have to keep moving and the game gives a lot of means for you to do all kinds of wild acrobatic shit. Every time you do something like that, the enemies get a debuff in hitting you, so an enemy goes from hitscan bullets to shooting wildly when you do a cool flip and slide through the air while putting 10inch blades into their eyeballs with your akimbo handcannons (the game is pretty fun).

I explained this all to my friend, and what does he do? Sits still behind cover and shoots with a sniper rifle, refuses to do any of the flippy shit and just keeps dying. After I carried him a few times he eventually stopped playing. My dude was always the one who found the most broken strat in any game and then complained that the game was boring as a result, I guess actually having to do a little bit of work for that was too much shrug-outta-hecks

[-] Lurkerino@hexbear.net 6 points 7 months ago

Ive been having a lot of fun, Im level 10 playing on dif 5, I dont get how would anyone get angry like in LOL in a game like this, being cannon fodder is part of the gameplay, you have thousands of diferent explosions to use, It feels great to just carpet bomb the insects, the propaganda is funny too.

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[-] FiniteBanjo@lemmy.today 5 points 7 months ago

"Maybe having your game shipped with kernel level spyware somehow disincentives intellectuals from playing the game?

No, the community is just toxic."

~Principle Skinner

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this post was submitted on 04 Mar 2024
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