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[-] mipadaitu@lemmy.world 215 points 6 months ago

Found it. Since the gas goes through the same hose as the other blends, if you're buying gas you need to get at least 4 gallons so the previous gas flushes out what was left in the hose from the previous sale, and fills enough of the container that the blend is primarily what you selected.

If you buy E15 and fill your tanks, then the next guy buys E10 and only gets 1 gallon, they might end up with a higher ethanol mix than intended, and if they use that on a small motor, like a chainsaw, it could ruin the seals.

[-] PlutoniumAcid@lemmy.world 167 points 6 months ago

I'm in Europe and I have never in my life seen a gas station that dispenses every fuel through just one hose.

Every fuel has its own hose and "pistol". Each "pump" has two or three or four hoses.

[-] ME5SENGER_24@lemmy.world 83 points 6 months ago

In America, if a corner exists a company will cut it.

[-] jonne@infosec.pub 8 points 6 months ago

It feels like blending hoses would be a more complicated setup?

[-] EldritchFeminity@lemmy.blahaj.zone 11 points 6 months ago

Multiple tanks hooked up to one valve and hose vs. multiple tanks with their own separate valves and hoses.

Obviously, it's a different kind of valve in the first setup to prevent backflow into other lines, but that's probably about the extent of it. With the second setup, you probably need to run a new line and pump for each station for each gas type, compared to just tying the tanks into the one valve and pump per station.

I'm not a plumber or anything, though, so take it with a grain of salt.

[-] Corkyskog@sh.itjust.works 13 points 6 months ago

I feel like we should specific for Europeans or whomever that there is definitely a different hose for Diesel

[-] HiddenLychee@lemmy.world 48 points 6 months ago

In the US only diesel gets its own pump, at least in my experience

[-] ShepherdPie@midwest.social 15 points 6 months ago

Same though I do recall seeing pumps with multiple hoses for each grade a lot more frequently back in the '90s and '00s.

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[-] Buelldozer@lemmy.today 9 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

In the US only diesel gets its own pump, at least in my experience

Yeah I always thought so too and then I ran into pumps like this in North Platte, Nebraska last June.

https://lemmy.today/pictrs/image/ab6bd220-9b30-47e6-aab6-dbc24ad683c3.jpeg

Edit: I couldn't fuel up at that pump as my car requires 92+ Octane.

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[-] Dinsmore@sh.itjust.works 9 points 6 months ago

Here's a pretty typical american pump: https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-shell-station-gas-pump-135764267.html You can select diesel with the green button, which comes out of the green handled hose on the left, but any other option for regular gas (87/89/93 in that picture) comes out of the right hose.

(US) I've been to gas stations in big cities, small towns, little collections of buildings that have no official name but they have a dollar general and a gas station, etc...

I've seen several kinds.

Single hose to dispense 87-93 ("normal") gasoline, and one for diesel

One hose for normal gas, one for diesel, and one for high-ethanol

One for all gasoline types and one for diesel

One super fancy stainless-steel-clad gas station that looked like something from retrofuturism had 5 hoses, one each for 87,90,93, e15, diesel, and the farthest end pump had a line for kerosine.

Never seen a combined gas and diesel hose though.

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[-] brap@lemmy.world 43 points 6 months ago

I'm not from the US so my biggest surprise here is that you don't get separate hoses for each grade.

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[-] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 29 points 6 months ago

Thanks for the explanation! I wonder what they would do if they caught someone dispensing only 3 gallons.

[-] Windex007@lemmy.world 39 points 6 months ago

Federal law states the punishment is a bare bottom spanking.

😳

[-] bazus1@lemmy.world 21 points 6 months ago

Federal law states the reward is a bare bottom spanking.

FTFY

[-] stinerman@midwest.social 18 points 6 months ago

I'm sorry officer. Looks like I only bought 3 gallons. I guess you'll have to...punish...me.

[-] mipadaitu@lemmy.world 17 points 6 months ago

Probably nothing. I guess it's possible if you kept switching back and forth between pumping a gallon of premium and a gallon of regular on different pumps to try to steal a few dollars of higher grade, they can use it to give you a ticket, but I'm pretty sure they won't really care if you were just topping off a tank of gas with 3 gallons before a road trip.

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[-] Tar_alcaran@sh.itjust.works 61 points 6 months ago

These signs also exist in the Netherlands, and the reason is because pumps are calibrated to a certain accuracy (say, 1%, for convenience).

But in the real world, you can get a lot of variation from temperature, to how long it's been since a pump was used, to how full the underground tank is. They all made a difference, mostly at the start and end of pumping.

So you get a law in percentages, and you get a real world deviation in volume. Obviously, if your pump is short 50ml on 1 liter, you're off by 5% and breaking the law. But of you slap a sticker on, telling everyone they "must" get 5 liters, you're off 50ml on 5L, a perfect 1% deviation and entirely within the limit.

But 8 gallon is BIG volume, damn.

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[-] Yaztromo@lemmy.world 50 points 6 months ago

Does this pump also dispense marked fuels through the same hose?

In my province of residence gas stations near farming communities often sell “marked fuel” (fuel with an added red dye in it) that are taxed less, and which are intended for farming machinery, road work equipment, boats, and other non-highway use only. If you’re caught with red-dyed fuel being used for any other purpose you can be charged with an offence, and levied fines or other penalties.

If you dispense a small amount of regular gasoline after another purchaser had bought marked gasoline, the dye in the fuel remaining in the lines likely isn’t diluted enough to tell the difference — and you could (hypothetically) then be charged with possessing marked fuel without the proper paperwork.

(Anywhere I’ve ever seen marked fuels sold usually has a separate hose for the marked fuel to be dispensed from to prevent this from happening — but I don’t know your gas station or where you live, so maybe they rely on dilution rather than separation to differentiate?)

[-] Sam_Bass@lemmy.world 11 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

The rural area i live in has pumps thst give non-ethanol fuel but is not dyed and costs more than the e85 they sell. No placards anywhere stating any federal fueling minimums either. I routinely fill a 2 gallon tank of nonethanol for my old yard equipment and have never had an issue

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[-] Texas_Hangover@lemm.ee 48 points 6 months ago

I got curious so I duckduckgo'd that shit.

Link

[-] Jazsta@lemmy.world 89 points 6 months ago

Thank you for sharing the link. Here's the relevant bit from the article:

Most gas stations don’t want to install new tanks just for E15. Instead, they’re installing blender pumps, which mix the ethanol and gasoline together in the right proportion depending on which one you want. But there’s a problem: if you pump E15 into your car, about a third of a gallon remains in the fueling hose when you’re done. If someone comes along, switches to E10, and buys a single gallon for their lawnmower, they’ll get a third of a gallon of E15 and two-thirds of a gallon of E10. That comes to about 11.7% ethanol, and that might be enough to set your lawnmower on fire.

So the EPA produced a new rule: if you sell E15, you have to require your customers to buy at least four gallons of gas regardless of what blend they’re buying. That’s a big enough purchase that the residual fuel in the hose is too small to matter

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[-] ccunning@lemmy.world 45 points 6 months ago

Buying E10 fuel (a mixture that contains 10 percent ethanol) from a hose that also supplies E15 fuel (a mixture that contains 15 percent ethanol) must buy at least four gallons to protect customers following behind. Ethanol is hard on engines and less efficient than regular gasoline. E15 can even cause engine failure in smaller or older engines. So if you’re using a blender pump to buy E10 that sells both E15 and E10, the residual amount of E15 left in the hose from the previous customer could cause significant damage to those smaller and older engines—unless you purchase at least 4 gallons.

Source

[-] billiam0202@lemmy.world 24 points 6 months ago

Hold the fuck up.

Customer A buys 10 gallons of E15.

Customer B buys 1 gallon of E10 from the same pump.

Customer C buys 1 gallon of E10 from the same pump and puts it in his chainsaw. If that gallon ruins Customer C's chainsaw, it's legally Customer B's fault? What the fuck?

Forcing B to buy more gas than he might want, to protect the customer after him, because of the customer that came before him, is some horseshit.

[-] deegeese@sopuli.xyz 23 points 6 months ago

The gas companies bought a law to exempt themselves from liability.

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[-] evasive_chimpanzee@lemmy.world 14 points 6 months ago

This seems like it's flipped around backwards. The picture says you have to pump more than 4 gallons if you are getting E15, but the explanation seems to explain why someone pumping E10 would want to pump more than 4 gallons.

I bet the real reason is that someone could pump a couple of gallons of cheaper E15, knowing they'd actually receive E10, leaving the next person to actually get that gas.

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[-] SirEDCaLot@lemmy.today 38 points 6 months ago

There's actually a really good explanation for this.

This is a mixing pump. It mixes ethanol into the fuel. Because the mixing happens before the part of the pump that measures how much is being dispensed, you need at least a few gallons to fully flush things out and get somewhere close to what you're actually buying.

Nobody is going to come arrest you if you buy 2 gallons of gas. But the gas you get me not be the mix you wanted.

[-] Anticorp@lemmy.world 33 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

Fucking 15% ethanol now? So they basically just raised the price of gasoline 5%, and reduced the fuel efficiency of everyone's vehicle, without so much as a peep. Where is this?

[-] corbin@infosec.pub 25 points 6 months ago

E15 is a different blend of fuel, it's not at all gas pumps and regular 87/89/91 octane level fuel is still available (because not all cars can use E15 like the sticker says). Sheetz stations sell it in my area around Raleigh, NC.

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[-] waz@lemmy.world 11 points 6 months ago

I would expect it to also be less expensive but they don't show us that information.

I personally wouldn't mind if my fuel mileage goes down if the cost is also proportionally lower.

Also, ethanol has a energy density of roughly 2/3 that of gasoline, so yes e85 would have 5% less energy than gasoline with no ethanol, not e10, which is what I see as the listed price in most places. When doing a price comparison, it should be against e0, not e10 if you are expecting a 5% energy difference.

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[-] mindlight@lemm.ee 27 points 6 months ago

Which is it, up to 15% or up to 10% ethanol?

[-] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 12 points 6 months ago

It's 10% in the winter and 15% in the summer (at least that's the legal limit), although I think that's changing. So I guess they just said what the hell and put on both stickers?

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[-] snooggums@midwest.social 16 points 6 months ago

It either violates federal law or it doesn't. May is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. Not to mention there are signs for both up to 10% and up to 15%...

If the purpose of the warning is to make sure people get the blend they want then just say that.

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[-] dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world 13 points 6 months ago

Fuck you if you own a motorcycle, I guess.

My RV200's tank only holds 1.7 gallons, and my CH50 will only take one. I guess I'm meant to just dispense the remaining three gallons onto the ground, then...?

[-] Melkath@kbin.social 12 points 6 months ago

From morocyclistonline.com:

Running your bike on E15 may cause your engine to run hot and could possibly damage your bike's catalytic convertor as well as cause crud buildup on your valves and pistons.

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[-] Brawndo@kbin.social 13 points 6 months ago

Ethanol is wildy bad for the environment and is raising the cost of food.

I read somewhere awhile back that it takes something like 3 gallons of gasoline (through running farm equipment and transportation) to make 4 gallons of ethanol. That coupled with ethanol being less efficient that gasoline and causes more wear and rear on vehicles probably means that if we ditched it altogether we'd probably the same carbon emissions wise.

Also, for every acre of corn raised to go into ethanol, that's one acre not going into feed corn or other food crops so we're effectively raising the cost of food via limiting supply and competition.

The only people that benefit are farmers that recieve substantial subsidies to grow it and government personnel who administer said subsidies and elected officials that campaign on taking money from you the tax payer and funneling it into these programs.

The cost to all of us is diffused, probably no more than a few tens of dollars taken from us via taxes so nobody is gonna go stand up to these people and demand that we end this subsidy. The benefit to them is very focused and large so they have every interest to keep the cash flowing their way. Every interest to take money from all classes of people but most damaging to the poorest of people since those dollars mean more to them than richer peoples.

This wildest part is that you who is reading this right now is probably outraged that this program is in place but the even crazier part is that you can substitute this with practically any and all industries and they are all doing the exact same thing but for the things that you agree with, are perfectly fine with keeping those subsidies flowing. After all, it's only the other people that are greedy. The only real solution is to completely end all federal subsidies but I'm sure you'll disagree and say that XYZ is necessary because it's your special interest.

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how do they enforce that? seems undoable

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[-] jeffw@lemmy.world 9 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

I think it has to do with how it’s dispensed. If the person before you bought regular fuel, the hose still might have residual fuel from the other kind, meaning you could end up with a different ethanol level than expected. That’s a fire hazard. 4 gallons is probably overkill but better safe than sorry.

Edit: basically, if you accidentally get half a gallon of 10% ethanol fuel and half a gallon of 15% ethanol fuel, you actually have 12.5%.

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this post was submitted on 01 May 2024
364 points (97.4% liked)

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