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submitted 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) by FatTony@lemmy.world to c/casualconversation@lemm.ee

https://www.mystateline.com/news/national/almost-half-of-young-men-have-never-approached-a-woman-romantically-study/

“In the entire dataset, 29% of men said they never approached a woman in person before. 27% said it had been more than one year. This was larger for men in the age 18-25 group: 45% had never approached a woman in person,” according to the study.

A majority of single males surveyed reported fear as the main reason they do not approach women for dates in person. Fear of rejection and fear of social consequences were the two most common responses.

The data highlights a growing concern in the United States and abroad — loneliness. A 2023 report from the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services found that almost half of U.S. adults report “measurable levels of loneliness.”

It's interesting to say the least. It seems as though the social repercussions and rejection are the most profound reason. While the fear of rejection is easy enough to digest. But I think the fear or social consequences is a relatively new construct.

From what I understand it's the fear of being viewed as a creep to approach a woman out of the blue. Which to me, is reasonable enough. But I don't think I have ever heard my old man or anyone of his generation bringing this to the table.

Yet I do remember asking my friends about picking up hints and whether or not men are really that bad at it. And most them saying the just don't want to risk misinterpreting it.

Perhaps there is an argument to be made that approaching women like this, has fallen out of social fashion. What do you guys think?

p.s. I hope this is casual enough of a conversation. I kinda screwed up my last one, I admit.

Edit: Here is a more detailed paper on the survey for those that are interested

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[-] don@lemm.ee 79 points 3 months ago

A female friend once said that, at least in the US, men are often viewed by women as being either creepy or not creepy. The not creepy men have learned to avoid women due to the creepy men, so the only men who would approach a woman must be creepy.

Make of that, and its consequences, what you will.

[-] FatTony@lemmy.world 22 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Well what I make of that is, that it's (perhaps) an out of date social norm ;)

[-] don@lemm.ee 6 points 3 months ago

It would seem so.

[-] pixeltree@lemmy.blahaj.zone 7 points 3 months ago

That's a really good way of putting it.

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[-] Melatonin@lemmy.dbzer0.com 77 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

I feel like this whole conversation is so alienating. You talk to people. You interact with people. Some of them are women. Some of the women you interact with are really cool. Maybe you find them attractive. So you say, "hey I know this is kind of a random encounter, but I'd like to see you again. Is there any chance we could hang out and go see a movie or get dinner or something?"

You aren't making first contact with an alien species. It's just people. Someone you're interested in, who might be interested in you. Don't bring a whole lot of baggage to the dance, just see if they want to go out. Have something in mind to do.

Maybe that's how you could spend your off time. Engage in something creative. Go to shows or plays or something that you do regularly that you can invite them along on. Listen to live music at some venue. Take an art class. Book club. Ping pong lessons. Go to a pokémon tournament if that's your bag. Just something that represents your interests that you can invite them along to, and if they don't want to come, ask what they want to do.

[-] FatTony@lemmy.world 23 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Perhaps you're right. Maybe we are dissecting a casual social affair a little too much. But then again I do wonder, what do you make of the 45% statistic?

[-] Melatonin@lemmy.dbzer0.com 26 points 3 months ago

I think the survey is talking about talking to strangers, which is always difficult. I've been a salesman several different times, including car sales, and it's hard to connect with a stranger. But it isn't a skill one needs to learn.

What would make you approach a woman you've never met or spoken to? It could only be her looks, and she knows that. So instantly you're shallow, to say the least.

Don't do that. Just get involved in things that are coed in life; work, church, clubs, theater, classes, you name it. Natural socialization. Be yourself. Have fun doing things, then look around at the people having fun with you. And just talk to them.

Let's stop idolizing pick-up artists. Because they ARE creepy.

[-] FatTony@lemmy.world 9 points 3 months ago

https://datepsychology.com/risk-aversion-and-dating/

I did some digging and according to this. 77% of women 18 - 30 want to be approached more. I don't know about pick up artists. But I wonder if a respectful way of approaching women could in fact be taught.

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[-] sentientity@lemm.ee 8 points 3 months ago

Agree. This kind of thing only ever seems to come up in regards to to heterosexual dating and it really imo diminishes the entire whole complex humans that are on both sides of the hypothetical interaction. You’re not talking to ~A Woman~* you’re talking to a person, who might or might not like you depending on 8374684 possible factors about the situation or their/your personality.

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[-] Yggnar@lemmy.world 51 points 3 months ago

Women have been complaining in popular media for decades about random dudes approaching them and asking them out. How is it a surprise that the trend is dying out? It's clearly something that most women don't enjoy to begin with.

[-] WanderingVentra@lemm.ee 8 points 3 months ago

Ya it sounds like it's at a good thing it's falling out of fashion from what I've heard from women. The problem is that it just being replaced with dating apps, so we as a society just need to find something to replace it with that's not so packed and sold lol.

[-] todd_bonzalez@lemm.ee 6 points 3 months ago

There are plenty of environments where you can still meet potential romantic/sexual partners offline, and approaching people you don't know is considered acceptable conduct.

The thing that's dying out is hitting on women everywhere.

You just need the confidence and dedication to actually go out to bars or attend singles nights and meet people.

Apps are only the new norm if you decide that wagging your fingers back and forth is the maximum effort you're willing to put in.

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[-] Ashtear@lemm.ee 38 points 3 months ago

Don't know how old your father is, but at least among Gen X women, creepy men absolutely have been part of the discussion. It just wasn't a public discussion until much more recently. Hell, the fake phone number thing goes back to landlines.

We're still at a point of significant cultural change in gender relations, and until an equilibrium point is reached, there's going to be apprehension about approaching others. To that end, it's important that we keep small gaffes made in good faith as social misdemeanors (to allow for opportunities to correct behavior) and not career-ending incidents. It only takes a quick browse of social media discussing one of these incidents to see why said apprehension exists.

That said, I still don't think we're having enough conversations about consent around positions of authority and social hierarchy in general. Too many people don't understand that being nice to someone when you're on the clock isn't implied consent for continued interaction with that person off the clock. That's the light stuff; it can go all the way to gross stories about cops and women. It all stems back to authority and power imbalance. This might be more of an issue in the US than elsewhere; I think ideals of "equality" and "social mobility" are so ingrained in our culture that some Americans don't have the social intelligence around the very real stratification that exists at the workplace and elsewhere.

Fear of rejection is a whole other problem that likely stems from everyone having more anxiety now. I was around a bunch of people in their late teens/early 20's a lot more than usual the past couple years and holy crap. I thought my social anxiety was bad. I don't know how these kids are going to function.

[-] protist@mander.xyz 10 points 3 months ago

OP didn't really bring up trying to pick up your work colleagues, I think that's pretty universally a bad idea, though it certainly happens. The risk of consequences is absolutely going to be high in a professional setting

[-] Ashtear@lemm.ee 7 points 3 months ago

Not just talking about work colleagues, also client or customer relationships.

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[-] vonbaronhans@midwest.social 6 points 3 months ago

I ended up marrying my work colleague. By the time we started dating I was already slated to leave the state for another gig in a couple months. Figured if it didn't work out, I'd be completely out of the picture soon anyway. If it did work out... well a year of long distance turned into a marriage, so it really worked out.

That said I have a more corporate long term job now, so I'd certainly have to be a lot more socially careful if I were single trying to meet someone at work.

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[-] pixeltree@lemmy.blahaj.zone 30 points 3 months ago

Ever since I was a young teen, I've been exposed to a lot of messaging about mean and harrassment and rape. I was already an extremely isolated kid, and it really drove me further away from women. I really didn't want to be a creep or make someone uncomfortable, and already had major self-esteem issues, and it really screwed me up tbh. Even during college, the school was super condescending about telling men not to rape people, and it really made me ashamed to be male. 2nd year, I started dating someone, but I just couldn't continue because I was so uncomfortable with it. I'm certainly an extreme case, but there is a lot of messaging out there affecting people, and not necessarily for the better. I've realized I'm trans since then, and apparently this is common in mtf people. In the end, I'm way more comfortable being with men, even though I'm generally less attracted to them physically in general. Anyways, I would LITERALLY NEVER approach a woman romantically in person, it has to be over a dating app of some sort where I know they're looking for something romantic and we can be upfront about needs and wants. That or they have to be very assertive and unambiguous in person, which very weirdly has actually happened to me.

[-] nikaaa@lemmy.world 14 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

the exact same thing has happened to me.

went to school and the general social narrative was that "men are all bad people, we should avoid them altogether", which, of course, is discrimination. The consequence is that you mostly intimidate sensitive guys that way, the guys that aren't actually a problem. It definitely leads to a lot of mental health issues for young men, especially (later) mtf ones (as i've observed).

What we can do about this, I think, is the general strategies against discrimination (point it out, talk about it, etc.) and ask questions such as "she may be offended if i ask her out, but she also may be offended if i don't ask her out" (girl not feeling pretty, wanting/needing attention, etc.).

[-] bionicjoey@lemmy.ca 6 points 3 months ago

Yup. Same exact problem I had growing up. I'm autistic and so I need social rules spelled out for me. The only rule that was explicitly taught to me was that you should never approach a woman unless she wants it. Of course, if you're autistic, there's no way of knowing if a woman wants you to approach her, so my reasoning was "okay, that must mean women will proposition guys that they are interested in, or otherwise make their intentions known". But obviously that isn't true either. I never fully got the hang of it and have only been lucky that dating apps somewhat streamline that process.

[-] SnotFlickerman@lemmy.blahaj.zone 28 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

I think both the "would you rather run into a man or a bear in the woods?" question for women and the "would you rather be emotionally vulnerable with a woman or a tree?" question for men scream loud and clear why there isn't much meeting in the middle on this issue.

Women are still living in a world that by and large treats women as property and rape as something that women should just get used to.

A woman in the US couldn't have her own bank account until 1974.

Until 1993, marital rape wasn't recognized at the Federal level, and only some states had laws against it.

So, up until just thirty-one years ago, raping your wife was cool and legal.

Women are watching politicians try to control their bodily autonomy by making abortion illegal, and the same people pushing that also happen to be pushing for an end to "no fault divorce" because they don't like women having the choice of divorcing them.

Women have so many good reasons to have had it up to here with men...

Now, women aren't responsible for men's emotional well-being and men really should do more to support each other when it comes to being open and emotionally vulnerable, but the downside is that it means men, overall, generally feel like they can't actually be open with women without it hurting their chances, romantically.

Much like it isn't every individual black person's job to educate every idiot white person they come in contact with, it's not every woman's job to educate every idiot man they come in contact with.

However, this impacts men who are just trying to find a footing and may grow into better people, given the opportunity. However, the attitude of that you're not responsible for explaining leads to nobody explaining except... right-wing asshats who are pushing division and hate. So, because there aren't left-wing men speaking to how to handle these issues and providing healthy in-gender support for other men, we're leaving it all up to women to do all the educating, and I mean, I get it, they don't want to, they're kind of over it, and that's probably why they're pretty rude about it, to boot. And since they're saying no and bowing out, that means young men are left to listen to voices like Andrew Tate.

I think both sides of this coin are doing each other a disservice. Women not having enough patience for men who could grow to be good men, and men not having enough self-reflection to realize that hanging your entire emotional stability on whether or not you are in a relationship is unhealthy, period.

[-] FatTony@lemmy.world 11 points 3 months ago

I think both the “would you rather run into a man or a bear in the woods?” question for women and the “would you rather be emotionally vulnerable with a woman or a tree?” question for men scream loud and clear why there isn’t much meeting in the middle on this issue.

I totally forgot about that one. And you're totally right! Seriously everything you've said here is an interesting take on the matter.

However, the attitude of that you’re not responsible for explaining leads to nobody explaining except… right-wing asshats who are pushing division and hate.

Would you say that perhaps an emphasis on social education (like in middle school or something) would be good first step to this? And not just to talk about what you shouldn't do but also when you in fact CAN try and make a move.

[-] SnotFlickerman@lemmy.blahaj.zone 8 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Back in the day they had things like "etiquette schools" (I guess they still do) with a focus on politeness and manners.

Frankly, there can and should be a modern version of etiquette but focused on interpersonal relationships taught in school. The modern version would focus on things like consent, healthy emotional support structures, and healthy communication strategies.

School itself is supposed to be a place to "live and learn" as it were when forming relationships, but it basically has very little adult stewardship of those concepts.

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[-] calcopiritus@lemmy.world 6 points 3 months ago

Who would've guessed! The "all men are horrible people" narrative is hurting non-horrible (the majority) men.

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[-] kshade@lemmy.world 26 points 3 months ago

There is very little positive guidance, just a sea of don'ts, usually worded as absolutes. And a lot of divisive "gender war" BS from all sides. Really not surprising.

[-] lvxferre@mander.xyz 21 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

For positive guidance, here's my approach in bars:

  • Casual environment. Preferably full of people, it's safer for both.
  • Good hygiene, and clothes that show self-care. You don't need to LARP as rich, but don't pop up with a spaghetti-stained T-shirt either.
  • Find some excuse to start a conversation. Plenty of times I've approached women outright saying "hey, I'm drinking alone and up to a chat. Are you waiting for someone?" (implied: "is it OK for me to sit with you?")
  • Offer a drink. Make sure that the waiter/waitress brings it, don't bring it yourself.
  • Find some topic that both of you enjoy to chitchat about. Avoid divisive ones.

It works well enough here in Latin America to break the ice.

Important: be assertive but don't be pushy. It's fine to show interest, it's not fine to insist. If you notice that she's uncomfortable with your presence, just leave. And some people will be only up for the chat, but won't be willing for anything sexy or romantic, that's fine too as long as you don't push boundaries.

[-] Lost_My_Mind@lemmy.world 12 points 3 months ago

Offer a drink. Make sure that the waiter/waitress brings it, don’t bring it yourself.

When you specifically say this, I get it.....but that thought would have never run through my mind in the moment.

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[-] protist@mander.xyz 20 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

But I think the fear or social consequences is a relatively new construct.

Rejection and social consequences have absolutely been part of the game, pretty much forever. If I had to wager, what's different now is that young people spend time online that has replaced irl time, which has "upped the stakes" for irl interactions in their minds. They also just haven't been as conditioned to being rejected irl and learning to move on.

I say all this as an elder Millennial who employs quite a few 20-somethings, and who has several 20-something nieces/nephews

[-] SnotFlickerman@lemmy.blahaj.zone 12 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

In the past, rejection ended when the interaction ended.

Now, the person doing the rejection can go home, record a Tiktok about how creeped out they were by this "weirdo creep" who approached them, and now you're being harassed by half the students in your school.

I think OP might be referring moreso to "social consequences" like this.

We didn't have to contend with things like say, the guy the girl rejected taking pics of the girl and making a bunch of pornographic deepfakes and spreading them around the school. The fact that it's fake doesn't matter, because enough people have seen it and have made judgments already based on it.

The social consequences now are deep, fast, and long-lasting.

In the past, nobody but you and the person who rejected you remember. Now, the nickname that follows you for the rest of your school career is rooted in the embarrassing thing that went viral all over students social media feeds. Now, nobody forgets, and nobody let's you forget.

[-] protist@mander.xyz 11 points 3 months ago

In the past, rejection ended when the interaction ended.

Uh, no, it didn't lmao

People talked shit and spread gossip and rumors all the time. Social failures often spread like wildfire through middle and high schools. When and where did you grow up?

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[-] half_built_pyramids@lemmy.world 19 points 3 months ago

At the grocery store? Lol no

At the bar, if you're hot sure

[-] FatTony@lemmy.world 13 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

So with the exception of attractive people, you would say it's an out of date norm?

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[-] MacedWindow@lemmy.world 17 points 3 months ago

I've noticed less interactions between strangers in general. I think there is a general anxiety issue and a fear of conversations going south/ people getting aggressive. Whether or not that's rational idk.

[-] Empty@leminal.space 16 points 3 months ago

I've never approached a woman. Is terrifying and not worth the humiliation.

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[-] Track_Shovel@slrpnk.net 14 points 3 months ago

I wonder how much of this fear is self-induced. Given we spend so much more of our time on the internet, and there has been a huge sexual reckoning for men. Women in the past two decades have gotten A L O T more vocal about shitty treatment from men, and that's a good thing. That said, male exposure to this vocal messaging has gone up and men are way more aware of it.

The thing is, though, is that men are missing the point. Women aren't necessarily saying don't come up and talk to me, but rather don't come up and grope me, or be a general pervert.

I have been out of the game for a long time, but I doubt treating a woman as a human, and being overall respectful would go over poorly, even if you were propositioning her for a date.

[-] BearOfaTime@lemm.ee 20 points 3 months ago

Women are saying don't approach me.

I've been seeing it, as an observer, since the 90's.

Not all women, but enough.

[-] wizardbeard@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 points 3 months ago

There's a lot hinging on the definition of "approach a woman in person" here, but the general conclusion of men being afraid of being labelled a creep tends to hold true in the people I know.

I have a friend who made moves on a mutual friend. As far as I know, he didn't do anything egregious. Farthest either said he went was putting his arm around her shoulder on a couch after she came back to his place with him alone to watch something after they had been hanging out and flirting most of the day. Both say he stopped as soon as she made it clear she wasn't interested (okay, hand off, I'm going to ramble like a nerd about this show because I legitimately wanted to show you it on top of anything else that might happen). She refused to attend anything where he would be present for over a year and had some very strong opinions about just how much of a womanizing creep he was.

So I've seen this sort of thing first hand.

But I think in general throughout time, guys generally didn't go up to a complete strangers and ask them out.

I approached my wife in person in a casual setting without any ulterior motives. We were both at a mutual friend's college graduation celebration. I knew precisely two people there, and they were chatting with other people. I had already exhausted small talk with most of the older family members of the graduate. I saw a woman off to the side not looking sure what to do with themselves and decided to try and start up a conversation. Maybe we could be awkward together. We ended up glued to each other keeping a conversation going for the rest of the event. Realized that night back home that I wanted to date her, and spent time checking out her facebook and talking to mutual friends to learn more about her before I asked her out via text. I even tried to make that casual, as I was inviting her to join me at a small local theater performance I was already going to either way, and dinner beforehand if she was interested. I didn't call it a date, just "hey I'm doing this thing that seems like something you'd enjoy, want to get dinner beforehand and come with?"

She was the roommate of someone in my friend group, and I was told in no uncertain terms by our mutual friends that if I screwed it up or hurt her they would hurt me.

So... yeah. Not going to flirt with a complete stranger for fear of being maced, or being socially ostracized by being labelled something like a creeper. Intense hesitation to date within or (in the case of my wife) on the periphery of my social groups lest I damage something.

After the show, I was so direct with my now wife about what I was looking for that she had to tell me to slow down, because if we had a relationship some of those things wouldn't only be up to me. And I told it to her saying "Look, I don't want to make ultimatums, but I don't want to waste either of our time, or for things to get serious only for some core incompatibility to come up and leave us both hurt. If any of this is a deal breaker, let's get it out in the open now and we can continue as friends, because you're really cool and I'd hate to miss out on that just because things couldn't work out romantically."

Ultimately things did work out, but it definitely wasn't the type of "courtship" people think of, or is shown in media.

My parents didn't meet as complete strangers either. Most people I know in relationships didn't.

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[-] walter_wiggles@lemmy.nz 11 points 3 months ago

You can do it if you follow these 2 rules: be attractive and don't be unattractive.

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[-] angrystego@lemmy.world 7 points 3 months ago

I think it IS getting out of date. It seems to me the modern approach is to contact the woman in a friendly manner without asking her out on a date, which is mostly a more comfortable situation for both sides and can lead to a date in the future if both sides feel like there's chemistry there.

[-] shortwavesurfer@lemmy.zip 6 points 3 months ago

I think the "me too" movement made me unwilling to approach anyone. I have a FWB from before that time and we work well together so i am cool with that.

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