They don't seem that traumatized when they are literally filming their own war crimes and posting them on Instagram for all the fascist clicks.
The only way I could rationalize the OG Nazis...trying to get into their head and how they managed to do the things they did...was that they were straight up brainwashed.
It sounded crazy when I was younger. Like, something out of a comic book instead of a history book.
But as I watch and try to critically understand how the modern propaganda machine works, I can't help but wonder if maybe I was right.
Posted this in another thread, gonna post it here, too.
"Looking another human being in the eye, making an independent decision to kill him, and watching as he dies due to your action combine to form one of the most basic, important, primal, and potentially traumatic occurrences of war."
It's an unpopular take, but I recommend everyone read the book "On Killing" by Dave Grossman. It's obvious that what Israel is doing is very much a genocide, but I stand firm in my opinion that their boots-on-the-ground infantryman are also victims of the Israeli political machine.
but I stand firm in my opinion that their boots-on-the-ground infantryman are also victims of the Israeli political machine.
Sure, but couldn't the same be said for many of the literal guards at Auschwitz? A lot of those people were just kids who were drafted and were simply following orders. Even many of those who were there willingly only did such things after being subject to years of ruthless Nazi propaganda.
At some point, regardless of what circumstances led you to that moment, you become responsible for your own actions. There is no set of circumstances that can make murdering innocent civilians justified. And if you do that anyway, you bear full moral culpability, regardless of what may have happened in your life before that point.
We literally hashed this out during the Nuremberg trials. It doesn't matter what propaganda you were subject to. It doesn't matter how you were raised. It doesn't matter if you were "just following orders." It doesn't even matter if you yourself would face execution for refusing to kill innocent civilians. It is never OK to kill innocent civilians, to perform genocide, or commit ethnic cleansing. If you do that, you deserve to hang for it. Full stop. No excuses.
The Nuremberg Trials are a great example of how you don’t hang if you provide enough value to the military-industrial complex, and a terrible example of full stop no excuses. Seems ill suited to be a foundation for a moral philosophy.
It absolutely could, and should. I'm not saying that the crimes should be forgiven, but it is not a purely black and white area. It is very grey. To ignore the fact that they were ordinary people in extraordinary circumstances, just because it's uncomfortable to think about, would be a disservice towards efforts to prevent things like this in the future. People are complex.
They have a choice. They could either kill innocent people or sit in a jail cell. Picking the first one makes you a sociopath.
I guarantee he would face a lot less trauma in jail, especially since he is a trained soldier.
Stop making excuses, "complexity" doesn't justify genocide. Do you also think that our soldiers who slaughtered hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis are just victims? Do you think the surviving family members would agree with that sentiment? That their families murderer is a victim?
It's all the same shit. They are copying us creating more terrorists for the future wars
And if the glass house you call your home exists in the united states, then your taxes financed filling the soldiers heads with the propaganda, financed sending them out on the field, made sure they had rations and ammo, and paid to put their finger on that trigger. What's your culpability, compadre? You know when you point your finger at someone, you've got three more aimed straight at yourself, right?
It's not a justification for genocide, it's a call for empathy. Give what I wrote another read with that in mind.
As for your questions... I think our soldiers are victims. I was there, so I think I've got at least a somewhat informed perspective on things. It's not something you can prepare for. In my experience, forgiveness and understanding come with time, but it will never be the majority.
Dave Grossman is full of shit. This is independent to the potential trauma from killing people (there's a wide range of reactions to that experience). Dave Grossman is full of shit.
but I stand firm in my opinion that their boots-on-the-ground infantryman are also victims of the Israeli political machine.
Caramel Marks, I mean Karl Marx, would probably agree with you.
and if he had refused to do as commanded would he have been shot himself?
If the army starts shooting its own soldiers, it's not going to exist for very long. You can read very obscure stories about occasional killings during the Vietnam War, but those are almost always things that happened in the jungle when nobody would ever find out.
If they try that kinda thing in Israel today, it's not going to be a secret, and all of the other infantry and their family are going to wonder who is next, which in turn would massively reduce support for the Israeli military.
there was a story of an iraq war soldier killed by his own squad a couple years ago. thats what put the thought in my head
No he would sit in a jail cell. As a trained soldier no one would fuck with him
Essentially a perfectly risk-free environment. But he chose murder instead
I hope these IDF soldiers wake up. You can't kill people without killing part of yourself.
I'm seeing so many parallels to our false wars in the Middle East. The vast majority of US soldiers who died did so by suicide.
Also netanyahu trying to create more generations of terrorism so he can have forever wars that keep him in absolute control. That's literally what we did, he is copying us play by play. Or perhaps we have a hand in what is happening as well... At least our intelligence agencies that is
The violence in that region predates both Iraq wars. Israel has no need to copy the U.S. here. It's important to remember that the situation is multiple generations of on-again-off-again violence, except now the scale is way up on the killings.
"cop needs therapy after shooting unarmed child"
“So, there is no such thing as citizens,” he said, referring to the ability of Hamas fighters to blend with civilians. “This is terrorism.”
Fuck the IDF
Well when he said “this is terrorism” he was correct. Just that it’s the IDF terrorizing innocent people.
Sympathy for the devil
Yeah, I suppose it was traumatic, bombing food relief convoys and hospitals. You could have avoided a lot of that PTSD by refusing to follow illegal orders.
Also, get farked, CNN.
My interpretation of this is that some mid-level staffers at CNN pushed the story knowing exactly what was in it. Their bosses wouldn't let them do obvious things, so they got a little subtle.
Some have labelled Israel as a rogue nation, but their actions are explicitly and implicitly condoned through other nation’s support and silence.
Didn't the US use to invade countries for much, much less of a reason than that? Sheesh.
These days I'm finding myself agreeing with the Iranian government more and more often because of Israel's crap. I don't like agreeing with the Iranian government.
No, human rights and that stuff hasn't been the actual reason for any invasions for a long time. It might have been used as an excuse, but it's generally really about power and/or economics.
Read about what actually happened in places like Guatemala, Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Nicaragua, and Panama. Think about what the actual reasons are for opposing communism, especially considering the timeline of what was known when recruiting Nazis for the opposition to (former ally) USSR, invading Korea, and invading Vietnam.
If you only want to dive into one of those, just look up Guatemala and Edward Bernays (a massive piece of shit).
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