Wow, this thread is so toxic.
I don't know how to express it but it sound the kid who decided to come to school on a bike that he bought with his own money got a flat tire, then the other kids who came with a big pickup truck paid by their parents are just spitting on him instead of offering some help.
This is my impression of what is happening in this thread right now
Not really the USA's job to make sure that the citizens of another country are prepared for a pandemic.
How about... and this might sound far-fetched... but you make your own plans for things? You know... since you're a sovereign communist country and all.
Edit: and any plan that's ultimately "rely on the USA"... well now you know that's probably a bad plan.
Have you forgotten that the US is still actively blockading Cuba? It's not about the US' lack of empathy. It's the simple fact that they actively blocked them from obtaining life saving equipment.
From the US... Cuba has had decades to partner with anyone else.
That's not how blockades work. The US doesn't allow trade with Cuba.
No, that's 100% how the embargo works (not a blockade).
The United States embargo against Cuba prevents U.S. businesses, and businesses organized under U.S. law or majority-owned by U.S. citizens, from conducting trade with Cuban interests.
They can work with ANY other country on the planet.
Here's what the UK government says about it:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/overseas-business-risk-cuba/overseas-business-risk-cuba
Yeah.. Notice that it specifically says US-interest companies... Not that it's illegal to trade with Cuba themselves.
From your own link showing that it's possible.
Companies should avoid making international transactions involving Cuba in USD, and instead use EUR or GBP. Major UK companies with interests in the US continue to do business successfully with Cuba.
I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm saying it's a chilling effect when the US can arbitrarily start blocking your financial transfers. International trade is typically done through USD. And trading with Cuba opens your company to US sanctions.
But honestly, just think about it for a second. which do you think is more likely? Cuba is completely incompetent and/or self isolating? Or the US blockade prevents Cuba from doing any significant amount of trade?
The US doesn't block anything except for it's own companies/interests to work with Cuba. That's it.
And I don't find it impossible for a country to be incompetent... Nor do I find it unreasonable for a country to be self-isolating.
The USA embargoing it certainly sucks for them. But that's how it goes. But even to that point...
Despite the existence of the embargo, Cuba can, and does, conduct international trade with many countries, including many U.S. allies; however, US-based companies, and companies that do business with the US, which trade in Cuba do so at the risk of U.S. sanctions.[10] Cuba has been a member of the World Trade Organization since 1995.[11] The European Union is Cuba's largest trading partner, and the United States is the fifth-largest exporter to Cuba (6.6% of Cuba's imports come from the US).[12] The Cuban government must, however, pay cash for all food imports from the United States, as credit is not allowed.[13]
So your original premise is still wrong...
How so? The existence of trade does not disprove the US blockade. Your own selected quote even states that you risk US sanctions if you trade with Cuba. This is NOT referring to US companies.
The risk of US sanctions can create uncertainty and businesses, especially banks, sometimes find themselves caught between conflicting legal requirements. UK companies, small- and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs) in particular, have for example encountered problems in payments to/from Cuba being blocked by UK banks.
We recommend that companies with extensive US interests which are interested in doing business with Cuba seek independent legal advice. We advise potential investors to read the advisory notes regarding US regulations on the OFAC website.
The existence of trade does not disprove the US blockade.
Blockade != Embargo. Stop conflicting the 2. US does not sail ships to actively block incoming trades to Cuba.
Your own selected quote even states that you risk US sanctions if you trade with Cuba. This is NOT referring to US companies.
It is EXPLICITLY referring only to US companies, or companies with significant US interests (companies that work in USD). And by my own quote from earlier... 6.6% of imports to Cuba come from the USA.
Wonder how that's possible when there's a blockade! Can you at least admit that you're wrong? Cuba CAN trade with any other country... Cuba CAN trade even with the USA. It CANNOT take or give credit in USD (which is the mechanism that blocks US interest companies typically) and cannot operate on Credit with ANY US company. So nothing would have stopped Cuba from purchasing the ventilators from a EU-based company. Considering that the USA literally OWNS all USD... it makes sense that they can control how it's used and who can redeem it.
Not being able to trade in USD is a huge issue, as it means you are blocked from SWIFT. When it's stated that you have to use a different currency, it means a whole different trading mechanism. Which may or may not exist/work for your business. And if the US decides to cut your access to SWIFT completely, then you're effectively out of business.
You could argue that the US should not have this much power over world trade, and I would agree with you. But you're not. You're blaming the Cubans for not being able to buy the replacement parts they needed, because the US totally isn't interfering with their trade. Not to mention the absolute inhumanity of this position. When the US suffered from hurrican Katrina, Cuba didn't hesitate to offer aid. When Cuba's main oxygen plant breaks during a pandemic? Apparently the American people show their humanity by cheering. And you feel this is just. I feel like you're just being willfully obtuse at this point.
Not being able to trade in USD is a huge issue, as it means you are blocked from SWIFT.
Cuba is not blocked from SWIFT. Currently only Iran and North Korea are blocked from SWIFT. So you're lying. https://bank-code.net/country/CUBA-%28CU%29.html
The rest of your points for the paragraph are moot.
You could argue that the US should not have this much power over world trade
It doesn't. It has ultimate control over USD... Which other [foreign] companies choose to use.
You’re blaming the Cubans for not being able to buy the replacement parts they needed, because the US totally isn’t interfering with their trade.
Already proven that US does not.
When the US suffered from hurrican Katrina, Cuba didn’t hesitate to offer aid. When Cuba’s main oxygen plant breaks during a pandemic? Apparently the American people show their humanity by cheering.
What's the point?
And you feel this is just.
I never said it was just. I never made ANY moral evaluation. Simply stated that it's not the US's job to perform this action. Castro can't demand aid from the US. You can't call it genocide.
Listing data for 2023 as proof of me lying. Cute. How about going back a couple of years? But no, I'm lying about everything, and Cuba not being able to buy parts they needed is totally their fault. I'm done with this. You can continue defending your murderous country in peace.
Listing data for 2023 as proof of me lying. Cute. How about going back a couple of years?
Nothing in that link shows SWIFT blocked Cuba. Quite the contrary, I've done a relatively exhaustive search... SWIFT has NEVER blocked Cuba. So yes... you're lying.
tort law link
In the common law of most English-speaking countries, there is no general duty to come to the rescue of another.[1]
Literally the first line in regards to "common law system".
Remittance nonsense
What does this have to do with anything? This doesn't cover any point regarding any supposed "blockade" (contrarily proves there is no blockade). Doesn't show that there's some form of US stranglehold over Cuba (Contrarily shows that USD can make it's way back to Cuba from Cuban migrants to the USA)... This is all evidence that you're argument is bullshit.
Nothing in that link shows SWIFT blocked Cuba. Quite the contrary, I’ve done a relatively exhaustive search… SWIFT has NEVER blocked Cuba. So yes… you’re lying.
Why are you so hell bent on defending the American empire against the Cuban people?
No, you haven't done a "relatively exhaustive search", if you had you would have learned that SWIFT has indeed blocked Cuba in the past.
https://www.dw.com/en/swift-could-slow-trumps-iran-sanctions/a-46119092
Based in Belgium, SWIFT claims political neutrality, but has bowed to US influence in the past, blocking transactions to Cuba and Iran.
The SWIFT software manual even admits to auto flagging payments that contain the word "Cuba" even if they're not related to Cuba (the country) at all 🤣
https://www.swift.com/sites/default/files/documents/swift_iso20022_thirdpartytoolkit_final.pdf (Page 13)
In the MT example, it’s highly likely the payment would be one of the 10% typically stopped by a sanctions filter, triggering an investigation. This is because the word ‘Cuba’ appears in the name and address and it’s otherwise unclear where the payment is going.
In the common law of most English-speaking countries, there is no general duty to come to the rescue of another.
Demonic worldview, just because your law books used to legitimize slavery would you also practice it?
Why are you so hell bent on defending the American empire against the Cuban people?
I actually don't particularly care... I just hate looking at these shitty arguments on the topic. When it's so easily refuted.
No, you haven’t done a “relatively exhaustive search”, if you had you would have learned that SWIFT has indeed blocked Cuba in the past.
Oh shit... so we've got one instance 22 years ago... And we're harping on it still today? Are you shitting me?
The SWIFT software manual even admits to auto flagging payments that contain the word “Cuba” even if they’re not related to Cuba (the country) at all 🤣
Every financial institution is required to make sure that they're not violations of actual sanctions/embargos. Also... notice that this says "Investigation" not block. eg... Swift would then have to check that the transaction isn't with a US-based or US vested company.
Demonic worldview, just because your law books used to legitimize slavery would you also practice it?
Nope, but I feel it's a worse violation of rights to mandate that people do something. I'd rather live somewhere where people are willingly helpful. But you don't get there by mandating it... Nor do you get there by demanding that "help" under the guise of stating that someone is committing literal genocide, when they're factually not. Accepting the premise of this "article" is literally the "demonic worldview" to me.
I'm surprised you are still argueing against the moving goalposts
Yeah... I should probably stop.
I kind of have a thing where I can help but put the blatant evidence out there that breaks their whole argument in front of them. I like to watch the meltdown...
Them: "There's a blockade!!!".... Me:"So where's the ships?" Sort of thing...
Where is this blockade you talk of? It never existed. If it weren't for the GOP the doors would be open to trade with the U.S. as well. The truth is they fucked up and made a deal with the wrong people and are feeling effects from it. I dont agree with it but you threaten to house and nuclear bomb a superpower once... you cant expect much recourse I guess
You said the quiet part out loud. The USA really does represent a gangster.
Or we could just life the embargo and allow them to trade with the countries we have strong armed into not trading with them.
We have deliberately crippled the Cuban economy and are surprised they're asking us to stop.
They are not blocked from trading with other countries. Quite the contrary other countries trade regularly with Cuba.
I don't get this article, Cuba's only oxygen plant breaks down and it's the US' fault?
Maybe the Cuban president should ensure vital infrastructure can be maintained and holds an inventory of spares?
https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/cuba-struggles-get-oxygen-sick-vaccines-healthy-2021-08-17/
glad to see we have the history understander here!
"hmm blockaded country that can't import food/crops can't feed their people. maybe they should simply grow crops and feed their people"
The embargo does not block food and medicine goods to Cuba from the United States, and other countries besides the US trade with Cuba (notably, China). But apart from that, great point.
As per the Reuters article I linked, Russia is their preferred trade partner and sent oxygen. Perhaps they should choose trade partners more carefully if they insist on relying on US components.
I'd guess they'd get a lot more help if they held free and fair elections
I’d guess they’d get a lot more help if they held free and fair elections
Yes because THAT'S what the US cares about. Like supporting 'free and fair elections' by overthrowing democratically elected governments in Chile, Argentina, Guatemala, Bolivia, Iran, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Nicaragua...
In each case they installed (or tried to install) a puppet dictator they could control. But no, please go on about how Cuba are actually THE BADDIES here.
Afghanistan? Lol, the Taliban?
Nice whataboutism though.
It's still more likely that the US would help Cuba if they introduced democracy
Oh damn dawg, I guess you haven't heard of the PDP before. All good, I gotchu
https://www.commondreams.org/views/2008/12/02/afghanistan-another-untold-story
Since feudal times the landholding system in Afghanistan had remained unchanged, with more than 75 percent of the land owned by big landlords who comprised only 3 percent of the rural population. In the mid-1960s, democratic revolutionary elements coalesced to form the People's Democratic Party (PDP). In 1973, the king was deposed, but the government that replaced him proved to be autocratic, corrupt, and unpopular. It in turn was forced out in 1978 after a massive demonstration in front of the presidential palace, and after the army intervened on the side of the demonstrators.
The military officers who took charge invited the PDP to form a new government under the leadership of Noor Mohammed Taraki, a poet and novelist. This is how a Marxist-led coalition of national democratic forces came into office. "It was a totally indigenous happening. Not even the CIA blamed the USSR for it," writes John Ryan, a retired professor at the University of Winnipeg, who was conducting an agricultural research project in Afghanistan at about that time.
The Taraki government proceeded to legalize labor unions, and set up a minimum wage, a progressive income tax, a literacy campaign, and programs that gave ordinary people greater access to health care, housing, and public sanitation. Fledgling peasant cooperatives were started and price reductions on some key foods were imposed...
Because of its egalitarian and collectivist economic policies the Taraki government also incurred the opposition of the US national security state. Almost immediately after the PDP coalition came to power, the CIA, assisted by Saudi and Pakistani military, launched a large scale intervention into Afghanistan on the side of the ousted feudal lords, reactionary tribal chieftains, mullahs, and opium traffickers.
A top official within the Taraki government was Hafizulla Amin, believed by many to have been recruited by the CIA during the several years he spent in the United States as a student. In September 1979, Amin seized state power in an armed coup. He executed Taraki, halted the reforms, and murdered, jailed, or exiled thousands of Taraki supporters as he moved toward establishing a fundamentalist Islamic state. But within two months, he was overthrown by PDP remnants including elements within the military.
It should be noted that all this happened before the Soviet military intervention. National security adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski publicly admitted--months before Soviet troops entered the country--that the Carter administration was providing huge sums to Muslim extremists to subvert the reformist government. Part of that effort involved brutal attacks by the CIA-backed mujahideen against schools and teachers in rural areas.
In late 1979, the seriously besieged PDP government asked Moscow to send a contingent of troops to help ward off the mujahideen (Islamic guerrilla fighters) and foreign mercenaries, all recruited, financed, and well-armed by the CIA. The Soviets already had been sending aid for projects in mining, education, agriculture, and public health. Deploying troops represented a commitment of a more serious and politically dangerous sort. It took repeated requests from Kabul before Moscow agreed to intervene militarily.
TL;DR: An organic, popular left-wing government deposed the king and made some serious reforms that challenged capital. Then -- and stop me if you've heard this one before -- capital interests and social reactionaries allied with the U.S. and its client states to attack said popular left-wing government. This pushed the left-wing government into the USSR's camp (again, stop me if this sounds familiar) and it asked the Soviet Union for more and more help, up to and including military assistance.
Now please log off, read theory, then come back and join the adults
For most of its existence, the party was split between the hardline Khalq and moderate Parcham factions, each of which claimed to represent the "true" PDPA
Classic leftists, can always be relied upon to divide and conquer themselves
In its final years, the party gradually moved away from Marxism–Leninism and towards Afghan nationalism
History may not repeat, but socialism sure does rhyme every time
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/People's_Democratic_Party_of_Afghanistan
I prefer my sources to be balanced, yours is a touch too far I'm afraid. I'm a lazy daoist, the centre is the path.
https://www.allsides.com/news-source/common-dreams-media-bias
And I don't need to read theory, theory is for the birds. Facts are what matters, and there is precisely one mildly successful communist country, Vietnam.
One.
“Centrist” bias is still biased.
Do you have a ~~mainstream biased~~ source that refutes their comment other than “evil socialism”?
“hmm blockaded country that can’t import food/crops can’t feed their people. maybe they should simply grow crops and feed their people”
Why can't they import food/crops? Do you believe that Cuba has 0 trade partners? Can you source any evidence of a "blockade" in place? I don't recall seeing ships surrounding Cuba stopping all boat shipments. You realize that the last real blockade that was established around Cuba was dismantled in the 1980's right? 6.6% of their current imports are from the USA. So not only is there no Blockade... but just an embargo... and not only is there an embargo, but one that's so toothless that we are on their major importer list even though they've had decades to work without the USA.
I can't believe there are actual Cuban embargo deniers now. The world has gone completely crazy.
The embargo is real and it's inhumane.
Sorry? But at what point in my text did I deny an embargo? Leave it to a lemmygrad user to twist what was stated to a denial off an embargo.
so toothless that we are on their major importer list even though they’ve had decades to work without the USA.
Right here my dude.
Leave it to a lemmygrad user to twist what was stated to a denial off an embargo.
"Your account is on an instance that I don't like, so you must be arguing in bad faith"
Always great to have a conversation with people who will reach for the silliest reason to not address the point being made. I know you have seen there was a link in my comment.
Right here my dude.
Yes the words directly preceding that were? You seem to have specifically ignored those words...
Maybe you need help... so let me pull it up for you again.
So not only is there no Blockade… but just an embargo… and not only is there an embargo,
So I do acknowledge there's an embargo. Not sure how you can claim that I'm denying there's an embargo... Now come the question. What does that Embargo entail? Can you tell me that? Or are you just going to go on about how there's a blockade like your fellow lemmygrad friend that claims there's no Embargo, but instead a Blockade.
“Your account is on an instance that I don’t like, so you must be arguing in bad faith”
If I had a problem with the instance, I'd defederate it. I'm sure there's plenty of users on lemmygrad that are perfectly fine to discuss topics with. And no, I wasn't basing your obvious bad faith argument in the fact that you're a lemmygrad user. However, it's a common occurrence that users from that instance will argue in bad faith regularly. You fit the shoe. So I'm calling it how I see it.
Always great to have a conversation with people who will reach for the silliest reason to not address the point being made.
And here we go exactly my point. I DID address the point. You're twisting the goalpost so hard that it might be a basketball hoop now.
I know you have seen there was a link in my comment.
The link is irrelavent because you made a claim that I deny the embargo. Which I categorically did not. You are effectively calling me a liar with a source that does not back up the claim. If you actually look up what the embargo terms are... Cuba cannot take or give credit to any US company. It also cannot operate in USD on the basis of credit to any other company operating in USD.
What this means is Cuba CAN make purchases from the US as long as it has the capital. This is why US makes up 6.6% of Cuba total imports. Because Cuba CAN purchase stuff from the US. And does so quite often. Don't believe me? here... https://www.bis.doc.gov/index.php/documents/technology-evaluation/ote-data-portal/country-analysis/3124-2021-statistical-analysis-of-u-s-trade-with-cuba/file But this is the point of my "toothless" statement... It's not a full embargo from the get-go. We DO trade with them. To me that's a toothless embargo.
Maybe the Cuban president should ensure vital infrastructure can be maintained and holds an inventory of spares?
Something that'd be significantly easier to do if it weren't for the US's continued immoral blockade and sanctions? Cuba does not have the resources to maintain the plant purely on their own, and they can't hit a magic button that will suddenly let them find an abundance of spare tools and equipment to repair their infrastructure in a disaster scenario without wider access to international trade.
They are in trade with China. They can import what ever the hell they want. They did not import the components for the plant out of incompetence and are producing propaganda to deflect blame.
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