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[-] JustZ@lemmy.world 169 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

I got a degree in criminology about 25 years ago and can confirm that there was no dispute in the science at that time that this was the way to reduce crime.

Everything else had been tried and tried again and proven not to work. It was around that time that my (then) field realized that the DARE program increased drug use.

It was almost 25 years after the St. Louis (maybe wrong city, it's been a while) Crime and Control study proved that flooding the streets with more police officers only pushed crime into other neighborhoods.

When I studied, it was almost a joke to read new research coming out, because every serious study was just confirming what everyone knew. Guest lecturers would come in to talk about their latest theories in criminology. and, it was basically everyone just sitting around saying oh yeah that's obvious. The field has peaked, and it was up to society then to catch up.

We looked at three strike's laws, truth and sentencing laws, asset forfeiture laws, mandatory minimums, and every time we found that these policies increase violent crime. They further fracture communities and destroy families at the generational level.

It may not be intuitive to think that, but would a little thought, a little reflection, it is hard to say that this would not be the obvious result.

The methods to reducing and ending recidivism have been well known to science. People who talk about harsh law enforcement and punitive corrections are either ignorant, emotional blowhards, or not serious about reducing crime.

We have in America a well-established cat and mouse model of policing. And indeed it does Trace its history to slave patrols, a reactionary force of violence, dispatched into the community to capture offenders. The entire model does absolutely nothing to prevent future crimes from occurring.

Maybe they catch some guy who's a serial offender, and get him off the streets. And they call that a win. But until the root causes of crime are addressed, all they're doing is playing serial offender whack-a-mole; the next one is just going to pop right up. And maybe they'll say, oh sure, that's because we have a "catch and release" system.

Well, if we literally did nothing at all to stop crime, and totally abolished the concept of a police force, the science is absolutely clear that most people are going to age out of crime by the time they turn 25, and the rest, save for a few people who are likely mentally disabled, will age out by the time they hit 35. But instead, we're kicking down doors and locking people out in cage for decades on end, making sure that their families are broken and locked in a cycle of poverty and trauma, and we end up sometimes with three generations of men sharing a prison together.

And while we're on the subject of prison, the science is also absolutely clear that the way to reduce recidivism to almost nothing is to provide good health care, good mental health care, and to teach people marketable skills, all in a safe environment. When I got my degree, the field was shifting to a program evaluation approach, because we had figured out what programs we needed to have, and the only thing left to do was to fine-tune those programs to get the most out of them.

But then 4 years would go by, or 8 years would go by, and some new tough-on-crime politician would come and wonder why we're spending so much money to hold people in a cage, and they'd start cutting the programs.

And despite that, and despite the emotional reactionaries who just want to see bad guys be treated badly to make themselves feel better about crime, virtually every type of crime is the lowest it's ever been in my lifetime.

[-] frezik@midwest.social 32 points 3 weeks ago

This is why we say "the cruelty is the point". As you note, these are not serious people trying to reduce crime. They are straight up lying about their goals, possibly even to themselves. The whole mindset is against the idea that crime is something that even can be reduced; rather, "bad people" will always do "bad things", and it's up to "powerful men" to protect the rest of society from them. It is rooted in a deeply authoritarian mindset that puts them as one of the "powerful men". If you were to reduce crime, how can they prove that they're one of the "powerful men"?

[-] kinsnik@lemmy.world 6 points 3 weeks ago

well, the powerful man probably think that covering people's basic necessities wouldn't reduce crime. After all, they have those covered in spades, and yet steal billions of dollars each year

[-] Presently42@lemmy.ca 25 points 3 weeks ago

This is a spectacular post

[-] Tiger@sh.itjust.works 14 points 3 weeks ago

Thank you for this great insight and information.

[-] pelespirit@sh.itjust.works 12 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

To add to that, it's the same with homelessness. Every 1-4 years, architecture students and urban planning students are asked to do projects on helping to house the homeless or something similar. Every time, they come up with innovative and unique ways to handle it. People forget about and/or realize that no one will try any of them. Repeat.

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[-] andros_rex@lemmy.world 9 points 3 weeks ago

emotional reactionaries who just want to see bad guys be treated badly to make themselves feel better about crime

I keep thinking about Dukakis. They asked if he would change his mind/support the death penalty if his wife was murdered. He said no - and folks flipped their shit.

The “left” as it exists in the US is so cowed by the idea of a Willie Horton scenario that it has to lean into that same evil vindictiveness. The 1994 Clinton crime bill which devastated Black communities was Dems trying to show off how “tough on crime” they could be.

Criminals are a safe “other” to hate.

[-] brightandshinyobject@lemmy.world 6 points 3 weeks ago

Do you have some beginner friendly references I could look at? I live in a MAGA heavy state and although logic doesn't always work the more tools in my belt the better!

[-] pankuleczkapl@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 3 weeks ago

Thank you for typing that out!

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[-] Godort@lemm.ee 83 points 3 weeks ago

They don't want to lessen crime, not really anyway.

They want to increase prison labor capacity by arresting and charging more people

[-] DannyBoy@sh.itjust.works 17 points 3 weeks ago

Americans maybe. There's other countries that don't have legal slavery.

[-] w3dd1e@lemm.ee 66 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

I can’t find the podcast. Maybe someone else can post an article about this:

Several years ago, I listened to a podcast that interviewed a man in Chicago who was conducting a study. His team found people with a criminal history(I think maybe drug dealers?) and tell them they’ll get $1000 a month. No strings attached.

There were a few who didn’t use the money well, but most quit crime/dealing drugs entirely. They found steady work and some went back to school.

All they needed was an opportunity to feel financially safe, feed their kids, and pay rent.

Edit: I think I found it? Here’s an article on it. Some of my facts were wrong, but the idea was right overall.

Chicago Future Fund

The article also mentions another called the Stock Economic Empowerment Demonstration.

I’m not sure which I heard about but I suspect the interview was with Richard Wallace who is mentioned in the article. Some of his talking points sounded familiar.

[-] pelespirit@sh.itjust.works 49 points 3 weeks ago

They've been trying it across the world, it's called Universal Basic Income. It's been proven mostly successful every time.

Here's an old article about the US: https://mashable.com/article/cities-with-universal-basic-income-guaranteed-income-programs

[-] w3dd1e@lemm.ee 26 points 3 weeks ago

Yeah! I wanted to specifically call out the study on UBI with formerly incarcerated people.

I know a lot of pushback on UBI is that it will make people lazy, or emboldened criminals. It has the exact opposite effect.

[-] pelespirit@sh.itjust.works 18 points 3 weeks ago

I believe that's manufactured pushback tbh. People who are overworked might think it would make themselves lazy. At first, maybe? To get your thoughts in order, it might look lazy. But most people who feel safe with a steady income want to be productive.

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[-] nifty@lemmy.world 10 points 3 weeks ago

That’s precisely it, there’s lots of evidence which shows that welfare programs are better for creating stable societies.

[-] givesomefucks@lemmy.world 42 points 3 weeks ago

If people have nothing to lose, they're gonna act like they have nothing to lose...

Like, it's basic psychology. Resource scarcity changes how our brains work, it's literally Maslow's hierarchy of needs

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[-] Jimmycakes@lemmy.world 33 points 3 weeks ago

They don't want less crime they want more so they can exert force over the population

[-] zxqwas@lemmy.world 21 points 3 weeks ago
[-] lime@feddit.nu 21 points 3 weeks ago

we're going through a massive organised crime wave at the moment.

coincidentally we've also been dismantling our social systems since the 90s and put a shitload of immigrants in the same poor neighbourhoods away from everyone else.

i'm sure it's unrelated.

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[-] DannyBoy@sh.itjust.works 6 points 3 weeks ago

There's a reason that Toronto is labelled one of the top safest cities in the world as well.

[-] doingthestuff@lemy.lol 5 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Toronto is becoming unaffordable for the working class. High cost of living is what is breaking the US too. I don't really know why people want to seek asylum in the west. I guess if you're okay sharing the floor of a room with a few other people on sleeping pads then the rest of the world must be an event worse shithole. You have to work two hours just to afford lunch.

My daughter has a boyfriend who lives on the outskirts of London. He was shocked at the cost of things in fucking Cincinnati. Ohio is in the cheaper half of US states.

[-] IrateAnteater@sh.itjust.works 5 points 3 weeks ago

For people seeking asylum, the choices are usually "kinda shitty conditions in a nice city" vs "abject poverty and life threatening conditions back home". It's not really a question which one is better. Toronto has issues, but the tap water won't give you cholera, nobody is going to stab you for your bag of rice, and that room you are sharing is not going to be bombed.

There's a lot of work to be done to make it a city that's livable for everyone, but please don't fall for bullshit narratives.

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[-] DarkFuture@lemmy.world 20 points 3 weeks ago

Won't happen in the United States. We're headed hard in the opposite direction. And the changes taking place right now will effectively make it impossible going forward.

Buy a gun. Protect yourself. Things are about to get real dark. There are about to be a lot more desperate people in this society.

[-] LovableSidekick@lemmy.world 6 points 3 weeks ago

I think you're right about where the US is headed, but only idiots think having guns will save them from thugs with more guns, let alone a squad of well trained soldiers.

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[-] cultsuperstar@lemmy.world 19 points 3 weeks ago

But if crime declined, the poor private prison corporations would lose money, and that's not a good thing. They wouldn't be able to give judges kickbacks to sentence lesser crimes! Please, think of the poor private prison corporations!

/s in case the sarcasm isn't abundantly clear.

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Basically, wealth inequality.

It should be very difficult to be very poor or very wealthy.

[-] Th4tGuyII@fedia.io 14 points 3 weeks ago

Exactly. Most people get into crime because their backs are to the wall. They're stuck in debt due to medical treatments they had to get, they're struggling to pay obscene rent prices and risk being kicked out their home - there's plenty of reasons, and much of it is down to poverty.

If you give people legitimate, easily accessible support nets that are enough to actually survive on, then you'll get less crime. It's rather simple.

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[-] humanspiral@lemmy.ca 13 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

UBI on top of universal healthcare is far better happiness promotion, violence elimination, than all of the non-health proposals.

public housing is always rationed, and usually ghetoization. It is rarely implemented as government funded abundance of housing that is small to be affordable, and in competition to private scarce supply that maximizes profits and lobbying power to keep housing scarce. Promoting housing abundance along with UBI is path for zero cost government programs where market prices of homes sold cover costs.

strong unions is concerned with high paying jobs for union members, at higher priority than expanding union membership. Less employment. UBI provides universal labour bargaining power including strike pay for organized labour. The freedom to say no and survive is a freedom that is far more important than coercion of companies to support labour unions? or just cheering on labour organization movements.

universal childcare is usually proposed as an institutional/licensed program designed to provide full time employment at living wage levels. UBI empowers people to both pay for childcare, but also be happy to look after fellow parents kids on a rotating basis for people empowered to choose 4 day workweeks, or lets a granny be happy to supplement UBI with a few hours of babysitting without needing to create a giant empire to achieve full time job creation scheme. Motivation for universal childcare is that "bureaucratic tax funded worker empire" with incidental benefits to parents.

free college is necessarily a rationed service. Affordable college with UBI is a pathway for people qualified for college, and who appreciate value over alternative opportunies they could choose instead of college if value is not there, is still a choice most qualified young people would make. Importantly for UBI, young teens can have hope that affording college gives them a future... a reason to study and be engaged in school.

[-] SatansMaggotyCumFart@lemmy.world 12 points 3 weeks ago

Why would the US want to limit their pool of slave labour?

[-] CosmicTurtle0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 points 3 weeks ago

"Those who make peaceful reform impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."

[-] meathorse@lemmy.world 9 points 3 weeks ago

Oh man, most of those were in place during the so called "golden age" of America. Maybe this is what the red hats have been fighting for all this time! /s

[-] HappySkullsplitter@lemmy.world 7 points 3 weeks ago
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[-] LovableSidekick@lemmy.world 7 points 3 weeks ago

People who do try that get demonized as Enemies of Freedom. But it's funny how much more free it feels when you don't worry about medical bills making you homeless etc.

[-] Thebeardedsinglemalt@lemmy.world 5 points 3 weeks ago

You wanna know what else makes billionaires billions of dollars? A strong middle class...the one with a lot of disposable income to, you guessed it, spend on goods and services!

Make enough affordable reliable cars then people with the disposable income will buy a new one every 5ish years and then the secondary used car market has good reliable cars to sell

[-] alcoholicorn@lemmy.ml 6 points 3 weeks ago

Every dollar the "middle class" has in disposable income is a dollar the billionaires didn't hold onto.

[-] dustyData@lemmy.world 5 points 3 weeks ago

But I don't want money in 5 years, I want it now!

— A 300 lbs toddler with an inherited hedge fund.

[-] madeinthebackseat@lemmy.world 5 points 3 weeks ago

...but think of the billionaires, then they couldn't buy politicians, control the media, and buy bigger yachts.

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[-] fakir@lemm.ee 5 points 3 weeks ago

Man can be free only when and if he’s able to rise above his insecurities

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this post was submitted on 04 Feb 2025
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