6
top 23 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[-] ImplyingImplications@lemmy.ca 27 points 2 days ago

Ah yes, now I remember why Trudeau was forced to resign. I almost forgot because he spent the last few weeks explaining we must stand against nations that bully their neighbours and threaten their sovereignty.

[-] Voroxpete@sh.itjust.works 13 points 2 days ago

Yeah, I was briefly starting to like him again. Reality always comes crashing back in at some point.

[-] HikingVet@lemmy.ca 18 points 2 days ago
[-] Perhapsjustsniffit@lemmy.ca 0 points 2 days ago

Let's kill them all.

Trudeau....probably.

[-] theacharnian@lemmy.ca 9 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

OK so hear me out: ever heard of a little thing called the Two State Solution? Well, one of those two states would be ...Israel, right? So anyone championing the Two State Solution, kind of by definition is a Zionist.

Zionism has come to mean more than "the Jewish people have a right to a national state in the Holy Land". It has come to mean apartheid, occupation, war crimes, ethnic cleansing, genocide even, and other such "wonderful" words. But, you know, there is also an original meaning of the word under all that garbage. Since Jews have lived in the Holy Land since forever, they have as much a right to national self-determination as do other people in the ME like, for example, the Druze, the Assyrians, the Palestinians, the Kurds, etc. Not more, of course, so they do not have a right to Jewish Supremacy, but also no less. There is nothing special about Jews compared to other ethnic groups. Not more rights, but also not fewer rights. Same as everyone else.

PS. Free Palestine. End the Apartheid and Occupation. Israeli war criminals at the Hague.

[-] teolan@lemmy.world 1 points 2 days ago

Drawing a line on a map and saying Jews go this side and Muslims go this side is still racist as fuck.

[-] theacharnian@lemmy.ca 6 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

It's literally how we got countries like Greece, Turkey, Armenia, Serbia, Croatia, etc. Christians on this side, Muslims on that one. Orthodox on this side, Catholics on that one. Even Belgium basically become a country when the Catholics decided to secede from the Dutch Protestants. Racist (for some definition of "racism" that includes religion), sure. Special to Zionism? No.

If the Serbians of 1990 (or the Greeks of 1920, etc etc) had a superpower behind them bankrolling their every war, supporting them diplomatically, protecting them at every turn the way the US does for Israel, the situation would like pretty much the same. Again, if you contextualize it in the Balkans/Near East, Zionism is really nothing special.

[-] Skullgrid@lemmy.world 2 points 2 days ago

It’s literally how we got countries like Greece, Turkey, Armenia, Serbia, Croatia

not really. with those countries it was through warfare during the collapse of a larger national/nation like entitiy. Israel was a mixture of a gift from the british and a betrayal of palestinians to palestinians, backed by rich people buying land from landlords who didn't give a shit.

Then through the six day war, israel did their own warfare (supported by much more potent powers than the palestinian side), and grabbed everything they wanted, but gave it up during the ceasefire , ceding back to...

Drawing a line on a map and saying Jews go this side and Muslims go this side

Which isn't want happened with the said countries

the Druze, the Assyrians, the Palestinians, the Kurds

Unfortunately for these poeple groups, they did not recieve the same support israel did during their territory bid/larger national/nation like entitiy's collapse.

[-] theacharnian@lemmy.ca 4 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

Drawing a line on a map and saying Jews go this side and Muslims go this side

Which isn’t want happened with the said countries

To be a bit more constructive than what I wrote in my previous comment: ethnicity was very often defined using religion in the Balkans:

  • After the Greek war of independence, Christian former Ottoman subjects renamed themselves as "Greek". At the Treaty of Lausanne, this went further and Christians in Anatolia were declared Greek and forced to move to Greece, whereas Mulsims in Greece were declared Turks and forced to move to Greece.
  • During the "Struggle for Macedonia", adherence to the Constantinople Patriarchate made someone Greek, adherence to the Sofia Exarchate made someone Bulgarian.
  • Bosniaks, Serbs and Croats share the same language. At the origin, the difference was pretty much religious and maps neatly to Muslim, Orthodox, and Catholic.

The only Balkan people that seem to have somehow miraculously overcome the religious fragmentation of ethnic identity are the Albanians.

[-] Skullgrid@lemmy.world 2 points 2 days ago

Sure thing, I haven't replied to your other comment yet because it's a lot to unpack and understand, and it's not convenient yet; but with this post you bring up some more salient points I haven't considered. My POV has been more the breakup of Yugoslavia, which felt like a conflict over territory by groups of people, wheras Israel's was more of a "straight lines drawn on maps". I was not aware of the specific historical motivations and perspectives for the yugoslav wars.

You might want to refine your other post a bit. I'm still interested in responding to you, just later. Thank you for having the self reflection to analyse your previous statements and provide clarifications.

[-] theacharnian@lemmy.ca 2 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

not really. with those countries it was through warfare during the collapse of a larger national/nation like entitiy. Israel was a mixture of a gift from the british and a betrayal of palestinians to palestinians, backed by rich people buying land from landlords who didn’t give a shit. Then through the six day war, israel did their own warfare (supported by much more potent powers than the palestinian side), and grabbed everything they wanted, but gave it up during the ceasefire , ceding back to… Unfortunately for these poeple groups, they did not recieve the same support israel did during their territory bid/larger national/nation like entitiy’s collapse.

So? Each nationalism is different in its details. And it's very obvious that Israel is also an offshoot of the Ottoman collapse, in the same way that Cyprus is, i.e, indirectly via the British. These details are irrelevant to my main point, which is that Jews (more specifically, those Jews who identify as "ethnically Jews", for others it's just their religion) also have national rights (no more, no less) than other ethnic groups.

And zionists have not done anything other extremist nationalists haven't done in the region. Genocide? Ask the Armenians to tell you about the Turks and the Azeris. Colonization? Ask the Greeks what we did in Macedonia. Occupation? Ask the Turks what they did in Cyprus. Ethnic cleansing? Ask the Serbs, and the Croats before. Irridentism? Oh boy, welcome to Balkan. Deny the existence of another oppressed ethnic group? Ask the Macedonians about the Bulgarians and the Greeks. Apartheid? Well, OK, conceded. I guess this one is unique to them, nobody else managed to do this. But not for lack of trying, instead probably due to technological limitations: The Greeks tried it out a bit in Thrace for some decades and the Greek Cypriots tried to do it for a decade or so before the Turkish invasion, but the Israelis have taken it to another level. But this is all details.

My main argument stands: ethnic Jews have exactly the same(*) rights to national self determination as every other ethnic group in this part of the world. No more and no less. There is nothing cosmically special about Jews or their nationalism.

Which isn’t want happened with the said countries

I actually know my own family history, thank you very much.

(*) I.e., no more and no less.

To be clear: we are on the timeline where ethnic jews are claiming much much much more than what is their right. Zionism is out of hand, and that's an understatement. The Israelis are acting out a genocidal mania that echoes the Armenian genocide at this point. This is not an argument to excuse Israel in anything. This is an argument against putting jewish nationalism, i.e., zionism, in some special evil place. In fact, I would argue the exact opposite: other balkan and near east nationalisms that now enjoy an aura of european respectability, like my Greek compatriots, need to be critically examined precisely through the lens of zionism: we are not that different in our shittiness than they are. If a Greek or a Turk declares themself an anti-zionist while clinging to Greek/Turkish national myths of taking back Constantinople or winning back the Ottoman Empire, well that says something about us too.

[-] JohnnyCanuck@lemmy.ca 13 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

There's more, but this is the full quote where he tries to equivocate the term first:
“The term Zionist increasingly being tossed around as a pejorative, in spite of the fact that it simply means believing in the right of Jewish people, like all people, to determine their own future, is not normal. No one in Canada should ever be afraid to call themselves a Zionist. I am a Zionist."

What a way to leave. I guess he's trying to bookend his, "I am a feminist" speech.

[-] puppinstuff@lemmy.ca 24 points 2 days ago

I’m all for that definition, too. But Israel can’t self-determine that they’re going to commit a genocide on their neighbors because they want to settle on their land.

As the PM facing down the 51st state threats I’d have thought he would want to expand on this statement a bit.

[-] NeuronautML@lemmy.ml 15 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

Zionism doesn't mean that. What kind of twilight zone is he living in ?

Jewish people are perfectly able to determine their own future without Zionism. Zionism is the repossession of inhabited land from people who are currently living on it and create an ethno state where the Jewish religion is in control of it to the detriment of everyone else, through the use of force and murder if need be.

I'm sick and tired of this whitewashing of Zionism. It's like when in 2015 some US groups were trying to redefine jihad as a personal struggle in life. No, it doesn't mean that, it means death and murder through holy war.

If you call yourself a Zionist, if you are a Zionist, you agree with the murder and mistreatment of people who are guilty of existing in a land that you decided to take for yourself in the name of your god Yahweh. I know you don't like to say his name in vain, but I think it's important to make the name very clear here, we wouldn't want to be unclear about whom are you killing all these children for and to whom you will answer to if it turns out you are right about his existence. The worst of humanity is being committed by Zionists for Yahweh, specifically in his name, for Zionism.

[-] IndustryStandard@lemmy.world 9 points 2 days ago

Similar to "You see, a Nazi is actually someone who cares a lot about their own country".

[-] small44@lemmy.world 5 points 2 days ago

Zionism was never possitive. It is a supermasist ideology that it's people think jews has priority over any other ethenic group that lived in the area to own the whole land. The term zionism come from zion a specific hill in jerusalem.

Early zionists leader admitted that there goal what occupation. Israel first prime minister said that after they gather army they would expand to whole palastine

[-] Dtules@lemmy.ca 6 points 2 days ago
[-] jerkface@lemmy.ca 3 points 2 days ago
[-] Subscript5676@lemmy.ca 7 points 2 days ago
[-] IndustryStandard@lemmy.world 3 points 2 days ago
[-] 60d@lemmy.ca 1 points 2 days ago

…and my AXE!

[-] IndustryStandard@lemmy.world 6 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

Canada’s second national antisemitism summit promises concrete steps to address violence and hate

“What we, what you, are experiencing is not normal. Antisemites singing the praises of Hamas and Hezbollah while waving their flags in the streets of our cities is not normal,” Trudeau told the National Forum on Combating Antisemitism, a one-day summit organized by the federal Liberals on March 6.

“The term Zionist increasingly being tossed around as a pejorative, in spite of the fact that it simply means believing in the right of Jewish people, like all people, to determine their own future, is not normal,” Trudeau continued. “No one in Canada should ever be afraid to call themselves a Zionist. I am a Zionist,” he said to applause from the audience.

[-] grte@lemmy.ca 8 points 2 days ago

That's not what zionism means, Trudeau. Presumably Palestinians are included in that, "Like all people," and yet don't seem to have the same right to self-determination in the face of the very concrete Israeli state that's set up on their land.

this post was submitted on 07 Mar 2025
6 points (56.5% liked)

Canada

8549 readers
1918 users here now

What's going on Canada?



Related Communities


🍁 Meta


🗺️ Provinces / Territories


🏙️ Cities / Local Communities

Sorted alphabetically by city name.


🏒 SportsHockey

Football (NFL): incomplete

Football (CFL): incomplete

Baseball

Basketball

Soccer


💻 Schools / Universities

Sorted by province, then by total full-time enrolment.


💵 Finance, Shopping, Sales


🗣️ Politics


🍁 Social / Culture


Rules

  1. Keep the original title when submitting an article. You can put your own commentary in the body of the post or in the comment section.

Reminder that the rules for lemmy.ca also apply here. See the sidebar on the homepage: lemmy.ca


founded 4 years ago
MODERATORS