Don't just come in here with takes I'll be thinking about all day.

That makes a lot of sense. It's not about what I can view as acceptable consumption. It's about the actual material harm present.

I think I've been getting caught up on abstract hypotheticals when yeah some people just like the taste and texture of meat. I've got to accept that as a fact and not as a moral failing to correct.

I hate that every now and then I crave meat. I haven't eaten any in years, and I don't think I will again at this point. I didn't mean to start unpacking those feelings now, but I'm seeing it better after this conversation.

Your version of the future makes sense too. At As we improve the flavor and texture of nuggets, they may start to resemble meat in certain ways. They don't somehow become more or less ethical if the material harm to animals remains the same.

Seriously thank you for carrying this conversation with me. I'm trying to be a better vegan and this definitely helps.

And don't get me wrong, I love imitation meat and dairy products.

I've never felt like I missed real butter over oat butter, but I feel like the implied default that comes with the label of 'real' gets conflated with 'superior'

I'm ND, so yeah, I guess I would be perceiving meat in a different way. I can't help but make the connection to animal consumption when eating fake meat.

I sometimes see western culture as drawn to an imitation if they can't afford the original. I feel like if we keep a door open on replication, there will be an obsession with the authentic or the original. Like rich bros a hundred years from now getting authentic steak with the belief that it's somehow better than whatever we can replicate. So even if it's perfectly replicated, having the original is somehow better.

I feel like if we step away from items or aesthetics associated with meat, we can step away from the desire from the real thing. Like totally divorce ourselves from the animal as much as we can.

I feel like by holding onto aesthetics reminiscent of meat, we might never get to the point of making eating an animal as equally unthinkable as eating a person.

That said, I think there are things like nuggets or sausages, or patties that can be easy enough to separate from animals. The principle is pretty uniform regardless of the components. Take a source of protein, grind it up, and cook it. Sure, I can abstract far enough to know that animals are made of protein, and can thus have their parts made into a nugget, but that just feels like a basic understanding of biology and cooking.

But yeah, I've thought a lot about this with the assumption technology can and likely will get to perfect replication.

I do the, 'I'm here' and let my circumstances speak for themselves.

I think I understand where you're coming from. I will be more mindful with my framing in the future.

So correct me if I'm wrong, but the idea is that if we can perfectly replicate a steak, as long as no animals are hurt in the process, that's totally fine?

I guess at that point, animal details on a piece of meat are purely aesthetic and wouldn't inherently make people more violent towards animals. It feels wrong to me, but I see how that's more of a 'me' thing.

Thanks for replying the way you did.

~~I think trying to imitate meat goes against some of the basic philosophy of veganism. We should move away from trying to get the taste of animal blood and fat to make a meaty flavor. It's trying to create the illusion of commodified animal suffering. At least that's how I see it.

It's energy and resources better spent on making food available to others.

And besides, meat just isn't that healthy.~~

Edit - tried to cross out what I said.

Oh my god I'd love a world where 'how are you' can be answered honestly or never asked at all.

This reminds me of that story here a while back about the autistic man who didn't react appropriately to someone's death and being convicted of murder.

It's fucking bleak out here that we have to make Oscar- winning emotional performances to convince people we have feelings.

I think masking as a concept gets mistaken as just concealing ND traits, when there is this element of forced emoting involved as well. You're actively masking when you force a smile to convince a person that you're actually happy. God forbid you can't cry on command to align with the pain you're feeling.

If someone tells you they're feeling a certain way, just believe them. You have nothing to lose.

They have millions and a loyal fanbase and it's still not enough for them. They have to poison them too. Imagine being that hollowed out.

Oh yeah, same. It's just magical thinking and offers of nostalgia.

It's just the cope people go through to navigate a worsening economy while lacking class consciousness. If you perpetuate the belief that the responsibility is on the consumer, then you can look at the exploitation and say it's because they weren't smart shoppers who did their homework. The system doesn't need to change, you just need to be smarter.

It's just another permutation of personal responsibility politics used to ignore the systemic problems we're seeing. It's telling customers not to be stupid instead of questioning why videogame companies keep selling low quality garbage with pre-order bonuses to hook people who want to look forward to something.

It's bad to do the pre-orders and get invested like with Starfield, but the people offering warnings like that are more just trying to prove they are being a smarter shopper. That they won't get duped by the hype.