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submitted 1 week ago by FrankLaskey@lemmy.ml to c/news@hexbear.net

cross-posted from: https://lemmy.ml/post/36603369

Italy is sending a ship to accompany the Gaza-bound Global Sumud Flotilla, who said its activists remain shaken but determined following an Israeli attack on Wednesday morning.

Organisers of expedition, which is attempting to carry aid to the Gaza Strip, shared footage this morning appears to show an explosion that detonated on one of the flotilla's vessels.

Late on Tuesday activists heard explosions and saw drones that targeted some of their boats, currently situated off Greece. "Multiple drones, unidentified objects dropped, communications jammed and explosions heard from a number of boats," the Global Sumud Flotilla said.

"I have authorised the immediate intervention of the Navy's frigate Fasan, which was sailing north of Crete and is heading towards the area," Italian Defence Minister Guido Crosetto said in a statement.

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[-] xiaohongshu@hexbear.net 89 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Where are the people who keep telling me that China cannot do anything about a genocide that has become an international issue?

[-] somename@hexbear.net 56 points 1 week ago

Yeah, it's pretty clear that one of the biggest failings of China as a socialist project is their complete unwillingness to use their power for greater liberation movements in the world, beyond economic investment. Not that economic investment isn't good, as it definitely is, but they could be doing so much more. In fact, China themselves did such things decades back, when they were in a much weaker position. Now that they are reaching global ascendancy, they still just focus on internal affairs. It's a failure of international solidarity.

[-] Tabitha@hexbear.net 21 points 1 week ago

I think it's possible that China thinks they need to hide their power level a little while longer before they fold the rest of the world into the cool zone.

[-] WildWeezing420@hexbear.net 42 points 1 week ago

This is the perpetual cope, but China shows no sign that this is what they're doing. All of their long term plans are steady sailing ahead on the same path

[-] glimmer_twin@hexbear.net 17 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

It’s been interesting to see the general hexbear take on China develop more towards the way I view the PRC. I used to feel way out on a limb not being a terminally online Dengist, and it felt like any criticism no matter how constructive was shouted down in favour of a vulgar uncritical support (and leaning on the “perpetual cope”, great turn of phrase btw).

Personally I am happy to see this development in the political judgment of the user base.

[-] WildWeezing420@hexbear.net 22 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Well I think it's a bit of an overcorrection from other western leftist spaces where there are lots of chauvinists who say China has no socialist characteristics whatsoever and is an evil authoritarian capitalist tankie country. Those people are equally annoying and without nuance or investigation.

I think the problem here is just bandwagoning onto a side without proper investigation and research into what China is actually like. It's neither the authoritarian boogeyman that the chauvinists claim, nor is the secret power-level hiding commie state that some users here have claimed. The boring truth is that it's a very risk-averse revisionist socialist state that struck it rich and is dealing with the consequences of that. They have a history of being too gung-ho in their socialism early on and paying dearly for it with many missteps and blunders, so they have overcorrected to be as safe and boring as possible while still being considered socialists.

[-] purpleworm@hexbear.net 7 points 1 week ago

They have a history of being too gung-ho in their socialism early on and paying dearly for it with many missteps and blunders, so they have overcorrected to be as safe and boring as possible while still being considered socialists.

To be fair, Mao and company sometimes seemed to forget what the point of having a vanguard is and that can be directly connected to several of their greatest failures (Hundred Flowers, Four Pests, Red Guards), rather than being "too socialist," because left-deviationism isn't just being "too socialist".

[-] WildWeezing420@hexbear.net 8 points 1 week ago

The general public in China does not care about these theoretical disputes about "left-deviation". From their perspective, these blunders and tragedies were, in fact, from being "too socialist" which is why they moved away and to the right

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[-] somename@hexbear.net 30 points 1 week ago

I’m personally skeptical of that, though it would be nice if it’s true. Just, the system shapes those who work in it, and a system that discourages this kind of international solidarity is going to reinforce those sentiments among the decision makers.

I think the most hope would be in a younger, more ideologically driven wing rising to take the reins, one that’s witnessed the consequences of China’s failure to act, and feel a drive to change things. With the current leadership I’m doubtful they’ll shift course.

[-] purpleworm@hexbear.net 13 points 1 week ago

Nations don't "hide their power level" of being secretly more leftist. Not even people "hide their power level" of being secretly more leftist. This complete cope.

[-] Tabitha@hexbear.net 4 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

I was talking about military power lol, coz like obviously China openly calls itself Marxist and communist.

[-] redchert@lemmygrad.ml 16 points 1 week ago

China still gives too much of a damn about the whole international law thing and trying to coax Taiwan into rejoining.

[-] SkingradGuard@hexbear.net 5 points 1 week ago

Honestly they should just declare war in Israel now

[-] Jabril@hexbear.net 31 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Italy is doing this in response to work on the ground by activists. Have you been organizing for Palestine in China? I'm not Chinese but I am from one of the countries directly responsible for the genocide and me and my comrades risk getting beaten, killed, doxxed, and/or arrested for Palestine.

As much as I would love for some government to step in and stop the genocide it feels like pretty naive to think that will happen without a mass movement of people on the ground demanding it from their own country.

[-] somename@hexbear.net 42 points 1 week ago

I would like to think a socialist superpower wouldn’t need mass protests in the streets to do the bare minimum against fascism and apartheid. China hasn't even broken economic ties with Israel.

[-] Jabril@hexbear.net 14 points 1 week ago

I would say it is dishonest to say they have done the bare minimum, I feel the true complaint anyone has is that China hasn't done what they themselves think they would do if they ran China. Everyone thinks they would escalate war with the US, NATO and Israel if they ran China and so since China isn't escalating war they aren't communist enough for people who very likely have never escalated any struggle with any oppressor force in their life at all.

A socialist state is no less beholden to the will of the masses than any other. The complaint here is that they maintain the same level of cooperation with Israel as they do with literally everyone else. It isn't preferential treatment, and they supply weapons and defensive tools to Israel's enemies while primarily selling Israel consumer products. Chinese people don't care enough to fight to stop that, and so the government continues with the policy they have had with pretty much everyone for several decades. Is this disappointing? Sure. Is there any reason to expect anything differently, given the circumstances? Not really.

I see many non-Chinese people hoping China is going to save them and the world, and I would tell them they need to organize in their own place and time for the world they want to see. Glazing China online and not organizing is not much different than criticizing China online and not organizing.

To see a Chinese person criticizing their own country for not doing enough means there is organizing work to be done there as there is everywhere else, and if you only criticize from the sidelines then you aren't really a principled communist, just a person who likes the idea of communism but wouldn't work towards it. If you aren't willing to take risk and struggle, it can hardly be expected of anyone else. I'm glad to hear updates from people's experience around the world, but I don't feel like it is too much to ask marxists on the marxist website who seem to care so much about theoretical economics and armchair grand strategy speculation to maybe follow the basic marxist principles of putting in the work of organizing for the things they want other people to get done for them.

China is in the beginning of socialist transition, and the process of building towards communism takes generations of struggle which we can expect would take centuries. A successful revolution doesn't end the process of struggle within a society, it only guarantees more struggle will be required. Chinese people need to advocate for Palestine if they have a problem with their government's position. Non-Chinese people need to advocate for Palestine if they have a problem with their own government's positions. Sorry, posting online doesn't count.

I would love a China that is emboldened enough to take risks because it knows it cannot be stopped in the way that the US does, but I'm under no illusion that China as it is would think that is something they can and should do. There are a lot of timelines that won't be met by the time China feels emboldened enough to just do whatever they want. more people will die, more ecosystems will be irreversibly destroyed; even your idealized China isn't going to be able to stop the ongoing or future atrocities happening even nearer to their country, yet alone any great distance away. When I see the dozens of countries directly enabling the genocide, I don't think "China needs to do something about this," I put the responsibility of the people of those nations, which most people criticizing China on this issue are a part of. Yes, it would be great if China can clean up the messes we make for us. It is easy to complain about how China isn't doing enough to stop the genocide being done for us in our name with our tax money and stolen labor value.

If we assume China is run by an actually committed Communist Party, building socialism in one country is a policy that has been in place since Stalin, and many would argue that the USSR's over extension in a lot of important liberation movements contributed greatly to its own downfall. That era of global scramble between communist backed groups versus western backed groups was a specific time and place, but if China doing whatever they can to protect their domestic priorities while protecting their overall strategy to fill any vacuum left by the US as soon as they can to continue to push the US towards collapse is their priority, it makes sense to do what they are doing at the pace they are doing it. China is wary of making bold moves, probably because it has the most heat on it from the west and it is dealing with nuclear nations run by religious fanatics who think the apocalypse is a one way ticket to eternal paradise. Maybe China wants to let the US make it's horrific, violent, criminal acts so it can dig its own grave enough that they can join a chorus on the issue instead of taking the lead. Being a serious and committed communist party with a long term goal of building towards communism means prioritizing the odds of success, and eliminating risk. We all want to imagine ourselves as the cool revolutionary making harrowing decisions, killing the enemy or whatever great man fantasy larp but I think the hard part of the revolution is surviving after for the centuries required to build towards communism, and it seems very unsurprising that China is micromanaging the risk they take on in such a way in order to ensure their centuries long crawl towards communism continues.

[-] redchert@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 1 week ago

I’m glad to hear updates from people’s experience around the world, but I don’t feel like it is too much to ask marxists on the marxist website who seem to care so much about theoretical economics and armchair grand strategy speculation to maybe follow the basic marxist principles of putting in the work of organizing for the things they want other people to get done for them.

While I agree with most of what you say. I will NEVER share anything here that I do/organize, maybe if I need donations, but even then it wont be directly stated to be "mine". Just like I wont post my home address or social security number on here. For the sake of OPSEC (yes that is important, even in a "silly" shitposting forum) please do be careful.

Also I think its important for comrades to share their thoughts, so they can be refined and/or corrected.

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[-] ClathrateG@hexbear.net 12 points 1 week ago

Neither has any AES state(apart from Cuba but that was decades ago not in response to the latest phase of genocide), or Italy for that matter

[-] WildWeezing420@hexbear.net 25 points 1 week ago

DPRK has been consistently correct on the Israel question, and has materially supported Palestinian violent resistance in the past. China needs to purge their foreign policy leadership and learn from their "little brothers"

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[-] somename@hexbear.net 15 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Equating the economic and military situation of China to all the AES states is a bit dishonest. Most AES states are under economic siege, are developing industrial bases, and are in a much more precarious situation. China is entirely different at that point. They’re the strongest economy in the world lol.

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[-] gayspacemarxist@hexbear.net 21 points 1 week ago

I obviously don't know what they're thinking, but this is how I see the situation: If China escalates with Israel the US and NATO will immediately declare war on China, it would be the perfect excuse, and its not super likely that anyone else would be prepared to join in their defense. Waiting for other countries to mobilize against Israel, and joining in only when its clearly a popular move, is better for China's style of soft power than trying to lead the global south into direct conflict with Empire. Especially when the conflict is essentially inevitable as the truth about Palestine comes out and anti genocide sentiment turns into mobilization.

Like I said idk what China is thinking, but from my perspective waiting is the smart move even though I find it extremely distasteful.

[-] WildWeezing420@hexbear.net 18 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Again, nobody is seriously asking for China to declare war on Israel (though that would be cool!)

Why can they not just cut off trade and investments and forbid Chinese companies and citizens from working with Israeli ones? Just some simple sanctions is all it would take to appease us, and presumably their own citizens who overwhelmingly do not approve of this genocide.

I don't think a conflict over Palestine is inevitable. The 12-day war with Iran was inflection point where risk of war was at it's peak. Since then, the resistance forces have weakened considerably and Israel is increasingly getting away with it. Iran had a short window to actually destroy the zionist entity and it balked, so now we are in a period of Zionist victory laps.

A future where Palestine is destroyed and Greater Israel metastasizes across West Asia seems more likely to me at this point than a global conflict over Palestine. If nations were willing to fight over Palestine, they would have done it by now. The only forces that were committed enough to actually fight over Palestine did so and were isolated and picked off one-by-one. Only the cowards and fence-sitters remain.

[-] Jabril@hexbear.net 7 points 1 week ago

China has been a major voice against sanctions because they are usually leveraged against China and China's allies. So advocating for such a thing will be used against them by their enemies.

Additionally, any such economic escalation can and likely would be taken as an opportunity for the US and co to immediately escalate more, creating a snowball effect which will get out of hand quickly.

It isn't glamorous but these decisions have economic effects which can blowback against Chinese people and it isn't surprising that the CPC is risk adverse

[-] WildWeezing420@hexbear.net 11 points 1 week ago

China has been a major voice against sanctions because they are usually leveraged against China and China's allies. So advocating for such a thing will be used against them by their enemies.

Who cares, they are already under heavy sanctions and trade war anyway. Every nation on Earth who likes hearing from China that American unilateral sanctions are unfair would have no problem with sanctions against the rogue terrorist zionist entity. Who would actually be upset and turned away by this "hypocrisy own"? What pro-Israel and anti-America nation in the global south even exists?

Additionally, any such economic escalation can and likely would be taken as an opportunity for the US and co to immediately escalate more, creating a snowball effect which will get out of hand quickly.

China has already handled such escalations deftly and called Trump's bluff on the trade wars, USA has no cards to play. They cannot sanction China without destroying their own economy.

It isn't glamorous but these decisions have economic effects which can blowback against Chinese people and it isn't surprising that the CPC is risk adverse

Risk-averse is underselling it. They are unprincipled cowards

[-] redchert@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

What pro-Israel and anti-America nation in the global south even exists?

Mind you most political global south elites still believe in the "international law and order", global south libs are still libs. Also China is still trying to win over the EU.

[-] WildWeezing420@hexbear.net 6 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Yeah but libs are fine with hypocrisy if it's in their interests. None of those global south libs would balk or blink an eye at sanctions against Israel.

The real insidious part of American sanctions are that they involve secondary sanctions. They don't just go after their target, they go after anyone who trades with the target. China could do sanctions without any secondary sanctions and the global south wouldn't mind at all since that's the part that's actually really oppressive to them.

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[-] redchert@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 1 week ago

A future where Palestine is destroyed and Greater Israel metastasizes across West Asia seems more likely to me at this point than a global conflict over Palestine.

I thought that before the Iran strikes. Nah Israhell will fall soon. If anything they are going to fight with the Saudis and/or Turkey eventually.

[-] ZWQbpkzl@hexbear.net 5 points 1 week ago

If anything they are going to fight with the Saudis and/or Turkey eventually.

Maybe if they fuck around Syria too much Turkey might intervene. But the Saudi's are the last people in the region Israel would have any reason to attack.

[-] WildWeezing420@hexbear.net 5 points 1 week ago

For me, the Iran strikes and quick ceasefire was what lead me to despair. If that wasn't the moment to finally destroy this rot, then it will never come. Every day that passes the resistance gets weaker and Iran closer to color revolution.

[-] redchert@lemmygrad.ml 6 points 1 week ago

The quick ceasefire happened because the Iranian state is so rotten it could have not formed a cohesive front to actually fight a war. The strikes on Tehran actually helped the anti-west faction immensely and reversed the soviet-unionization of the islamic republic, well if the anti-west faction takes the opportunity.

Its true that the fall of syria did destroy the axis of resistance (sans yemen), but iranian libs were well on their way to do that on their own.

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[-] WildWeezing420@hexbear.net 18 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Why is there not more pressure from the Chinese masses on this subject? Obviously the broad sentiment is that Israel is committing war crimes and support for Palestine, but this doesn't seem to materialize into any actual movement. Are people there not pissed at their government's inaction and mocking its weak "condemnation" letters and UN-centric dead end diplomacy? It should be obvious how weak it makes China look internationally, doesn't that bother the nationalists?

[-] ClathrateG@hexbear.net 13 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

We're waiting till Italy(or any other state to do something) before we condemn China for not doing so

Sending this warship is cool and good and may enable(big may) a load of aid to get through, but lets not pretend its going to do anything to stop the genocide

[-] AssortedBiscuits@hexbear.net 10 points 1 week ago

I came for the China struggle session and stayed for the DPRK struggle session.

[-] ZWQbpkzl@hexbear.net 8 points 1 week ago

AFAIK China doesn't have a single internationalist bone left in its body. The USSR was pretty apathetic at this too compared to places like Cuba and China used to be better in the past.

[-] somename@hexbear.net 9 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

China actually had a period of negative internationalism, actively hindering socialist projects abroad. During the 70s and 80s they financed and supported a lot of the anti-Soviet movements. That was part of why they were so rapidly accepted by the capitalist organs of the west, after the complete freeze before Nixon opened up.

So really, doing nothing is an improvement from their lowest, unfortunately.

[-] purpleworm@hexbear.net 8 points 1 week ago

The USSR was not apathetic, though obviously they focused on supporting projects closer by. It wasn't exclusive though, see their support of Cuba for example.

[-] redchert@lemmygrad.ml 7 points 1 week ago

Doesnt help that the USSR took heavy losses in the afghan war.

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