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this post was submitted on 14 Oct 2023
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This whole situation feels like what Putin dreamed would have happened with Ukraine. A very public and brutal attack on civilians responded to with a disproportionate level of military force with the end result being the land of the initial aggressor belonging to the perceived victim.
Putin had to invent an excuse, but he would have loved a reason such as this. Combined with Israel possessing one of the foremost intelligence agencies in the world and Egypt warning of an impending attack; this feels like, if not planned, a welcome event for the current Israeli administration.
This is such a bizarre conspiracy theory. Netanyahu will be remembered as being asleep at the wheel for the worst attack on Israel in its history -- and the worst massacre of Jewish people since the Holocaust. His political career, built almost solely on his ability to protect Israelis from exactly this kind of attack, is almost certainly over. His ability to obstruct his corruption trial is too. That's extreme risk, no reward and really makes no sense at all.
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
Netanyahu openly admitted to enabling Hamas in order to delegitimize other Palestinian groups. It's not even a conspiracy theory it's just a fact.
Though vile, encouraging strong extremists relative to moderates to divide Palestinians and discredit the idea of Palestinian government is not remotely the same thing as conspiring to murder thousands of your own citizens for political gain.
(Also, he didn't openly admit it. There's an unconfirmed report that he said that during a 2019 meeting. Others close to Netanyahu have said that was basically the policy whether he said it or not.)
https://archive.md/APxHn
I think the claim that this was Netanyahu's strategy is a bit stronger than you think.
It has certainly backfired on him.
Normally, buffoons being caught out by their buffoonery would be funny but it cost the lives of ~1000 civilians.
I don't disagree! I wasn't disputing that it was his policy, only that he's openly admitting it.
All good, mate. Wasn't having at you.
I do think he has openly admitted to his colleagues according to those articles.
Latest polls show indeed a huge drop in support for Netanyahu's party.
I don't know, I really think it's a mix. A relatively small attack would have had a similar rallying effect without commensurate vitriol towards the ruling party. It may have been that Netanyahu believed, or chose to believe, that the impending attack would not be nearly so large or vicious as it ended up - another metaphorical bottle rocket barrage that he could use to distract from his other authoritarian undertakings.
But I do agree that any conspiracy that asserts that the current Israeli government was looking for hundreds of Israeli deaths is deluded. Clearly, they did not see or chose not to see the scale of the coming attack.
But in this world, Netanyahu would have to trust Hamas to stage a small attack so much that he'd have the military stand down and give them free reign for like 16 hours. Absurd. Not to mention they were already getting small attacks from Gaza and regular violence in the West Bank from the crisis they created that has spiralled out of control. Again, extreme risk for no reward. And the most certain outcome would be gaining nothing and losing his power, legacy, and freedom when caught (if he wasn't executed for treason).
In people's imaginations massive conspiracies are easy to pull off. In the real world, conspiracies that would necessarily involve dozens to hundreds of people (and multiple branches of government) don't stay secret for long -- especially when they're catastrophically fucked up. It takes just one chatty Kathy, one drunk brag, one guilty conscience, one failed attempt at blackmail, one low-level conspirator who wants a book deal to topple the house of cards. Humans are nearly as bad at conspiring as they are at assessing risk.
It worked out great for George W Bush.
Apples and oranges.
Funny how Ukraine is being supported for the reason of "fighting occupation" that is Russia and russia bad.
At the same time, Palestine is being given collective punishment because they are terrorists for fighting for their human rights and water and food and medicine and their own homeland.
Well the issue is how they fight... It's a bit more complicated and not just black and white.
I don't know (wo)man, somehow I can't image bunch of Ukrainians gliding into Moscow's music festival and youths facilities with aim of killing as many as possible as brutally as possible.
I would compare Hamas rather to Chechen back when Russia invaded them. And Russia killed their own people in at least two occasions when mass taken as hostages in that time.
I don't recall Ukraine targeting civilians, even though it's clear they could cause horrific civilian casualties in Russia if they wanted to.
Israel has a lot of Palestinians prisoners who were civilians and many are children. In order to get prisoners, you need prisoners to exchange. Britney Griner wasn’t brought back from Russia using money or resources but another prisoner. Palestinians have no int’l negotiating power.
So we live in a world that has made rules that criminalize Palestinians right to defend themselves. Some take desperate action, after 50+ years of violence and apartheid, and you’re judging the reaction and not the the thing being reacted to?
I don’t understand logic like this. It leads to awful communities where violent people are propped up at the expense of their victims. No one responds well to apartheid and illegal annexation.
Why bruttally murder whole families though ? Take them meat shields and retreat ASAP it gives higher success rate anyway. Why parade naked women body through the streets ? Nah their goal is to kill all Izraelis, anyone foreing loooking or anyone not taking part their religion.
I'm talking about Hamas not the ordinary Palestinians just to be clear.
Too bad Israel isn't attacking just Hamas, or even doing a respectable job of pretending to try. As far as I'm concerned there's little to no moral difference between Hamas and Israel's government.
It's for international war court to judge and not some crazy butchers (Hamas) who punished wrong people anyway.
And if you are gonna imply it won't be just a) specifically killing kids as revenge is definitely not just, b) EU just doubbled their € budget that was already there to help Gaza . So not everyone is only supporting One side
I am going to respond as though you're being sincere, but it's hard to tell these days.
Some of the things you're referencing were debunked. Be careful about what you accept as fact, especially when the people spreading that "fact" have a history of making up similar things to justify war. The US made up similar things about Cubans, Afghanis, Iraqis, and so on to make it easier to justify a population for war or to desensitize the population to illegal actions like water boarding.
I want to be clear that my intention and internal tone as I write this is not judgement at all. I'm just trying to zoom out a bit and ask, "Why, when they've done it before, would they not do it now?"
Remember that Israel and Palestine are not the only "powers" who care about this issue or its outcome. And as such, Israel and Palestine are not going to be the only ones taking action -- just the ones people pay attention to while other state actors are obfuscated by the smokescreen. There is A LOT of propaganda on this issue in every direction. Every state is looking at the populations of its enemies and figuring out how it can exploit this event for its own security interests.
**With all that said, imagine being Palestinian: **
You've watched representatives advocate in front of the UN for decades. Your people still don't have the right to vote in it, but Israel does. So the state killing your people has to right to vote to ignore your pleas on the international level. The bully state has teamed up with all many other bully states. When I say bully, I mean they use diplomacy to back smaller countries into corners and act against their own interests. Voting against them may mean your people starve for the next 5 years due to IMF loans, aide programs, etc.
You conclude on the international level there is no salvation coming. No one with power is helping you and actively refuses to acknowledge your people are dying, let alone who's killing them.
Your grandfather died in the Nakbah (sp?), when the west forcibly eradicated 750,000 Palestinians from their homes to make room for Europeans -- Jewish or otherwise. Israel made it illegal to talk about what happened to your family. It's illegal to deny the Holocaust in many places, but it's illegal to recognize the Nakbah in Israel. Despite it being undeniable reality.
Then, the state that has been systematically killing your people -- the state whose own internal documents suggest they want it to be drawn out death to make it more socially acceptable and less obviously murderous -- is now run by someone who enthusiastically wants to swiftly kill your people off and is trying to reach levels of power that make that possible.
You see the Israeli people incapable of stopping him. The ones who care about the idea of your right to life that is. The other Israelis you can see sitting on hillsides watching illegal air strikes and cheering it on like Americans and fireworks. This was something people regularly engaged in before the Hamas attack.
This leader ramps up operations where the IDF forcibly evicts your neighbors and family members from their homes. The checkpoints increase, walking around your own town is logistically more similar to prisoner in a US prison at this point. When the IDF says your commute to work stops, it stops. It stops multiple times a day every day. You watch people be beaten during the stops. If they fight back, they're murdered in front of you.
The IDF soldiers are taking more people than they used to suddenly with their new leader. They're taking more children and civilians. They're intentionally bombing hospitals. You watch as leaders cry out to the international community, but for 50 years the international community has said your people are liars and deserve to die. Maybe not with its words, they haven't said that per se, but with the actions and lack of action.
You live in the most dangerous part of the occupied territories (afaik), Gaza. There is no way to escape. Israel has bombed all routes out before Hamas attacked. Israel's violence continues to escalate as the IDF protects settlers who engage in vigilante, racist violence, stealing your friends' homes.
Every second of every day is a question of when will the Israelis hurt me next?
Again, there is NO way out. Israel is taking more space and engaging in more and more violence as they do so.
So why would they? Because Israel intentionally, as part of their ethnic cleansing strategy, gave them no way out and continued to harass them.
There is no mammal on Earth that won't get violent at that point (except maybe manatees, lol).
Sorry for not replying to every single point given. Due to the shear amount of text I hope it's understandable.
My point is that dispute of the past gives no one special right to be extra cruel. Once someone starts killing babies, it no longer matter if they or their grandparents had very difficult life. They are baby killers from that point on. It's never justified to take revenge on innocent people. Regardless of what side it is.
We are no in 1949 anymore, EU is helping Gaza for instance by humanitarian aid which they doubled these days. UN push against Izrael's order for northen Gaza. So going to international institutions as humans rights court or war crime court of even just documenting any wrong doing is much more effective at making situation better than butchering bunch of youngsters.
I only gave 2 points and you didn’t respond to either. I won’t give you the benefit of the doubt this time:
You’re spreading a lie, and I’m betting it’s intentional at this point. The baby killing thing was debunked and even the President had to apologize for spreading that low. The IDF even didn’t confirm it.
If you were cornered in the world’s largest concentration camp and things only get worse every day, what would you do?
The mental gymnastics being done to justify genocide. They have a MILLION CIVILIANS in a cage and are bombing the shit out of them. There are NO circumstances where that is an ethical or justifiable action. It’s not hard. You just don’t want to admit you’re Darth Vader and not Luke Skywalker in this.
Thx for making it shorter this time.
I do not spread lies I gave an example that should make it clear that people don't get right to become criminals because they were wronged in the past. You can replace babies with kids/ grandmas/ women etc.... Point stays.
I would probably try International humans right court, International war crimes court, ask for azyl in EU, Call UN for help, document and publicized wrongdoings, Emigrade,... Probably few more.... But i would not create terrorist cell, attack young people at peaceful music festival and murder families in their homes or kill daughter of one of the few Izreali who invest into Gaza and gives Palestinians work there.
Note: I'm against killing innocent people at any side of baricade but you seem to support the idea killing Jews . I wonder why.
bonus: I don't play to be Jedi since I left kindergarten, though I have to admit I miss it sometimes. Gotta rewatch original episodes sometime.
I literally am a Jew. I support people defending themselves — even if their assailants are Jewish. You seem to think that Jews are allowed to commit genocide because they’re Jews. At this point, Israel has bombed 5 UN schools that had children sheltering inside. Being a Zionist and being Jewish are not the same thing, and not being able to understand the difference between them, is antisemitism. Killing people en masse has nothing to do with Judaism, and if you think they must be related, that speaks more about you than it does about my people.
I couldn't care less if people are Jewish, Arab, Budhists, Chinese or green mutants. I think that the problem of the west is deviding people into these categories.
Back to the topic. If you get attacked you get right to defend yourself. If you are oppressed and are too weak to defend your state, you ought to sought help.
But Hammas main goal is not peace or end of oppression they stated their goal is to kill all Jews. In meanwhile and if they succeed, do you think Palestinian get better life or they live under terrorist regime supressing their humans right?
As for Israel , they have to get rid off Hammas. IMHO they can't do that with shelling. They have to go in and clear Hammad with special force face to face. All civilian casaulties should be maximally avoided.
It's supper hard but other option is what? Live next to the ticking bomb that will periodacally massacre specifically weakest civilians because , terrorist will quickly learn no retaliation can happen?
Please stop spreading misinformation. You can read the Hamas charter online and it doesn’t actually say that their goal is to kill all of us. Furthermore, the ICJ ruled in — I believe — 2004 for that Israel does not have the right to defend itself against Palestinians as an occupying power.
Many people will have their arguments to justify enabling and funding genocide. Just own that you want to help kill innocent people while ignoring the truth that you’re doing that.
I mean Palestinians don't have an army and no means to create one. The Troubles would be a better comparison. Not perfect, but better.
Neither does Russia use white phosphorus if I remember.
I thought Russia was the initial aggressor against Ukraine. Where’s the retaliatory angle in that conflict? Did Ukraine kidnap people from a music festival like Hamas?
Russia absolutely is the initial aggressor in the Ukraine conflict, but emphatically insists they are responding to a threat from the Ukraine in their propaganda.
Who cares what Russia claims? Everyone knows their grievances are entirely fictional. It's not even a plausible fiction.
You’re not the intended audience
Do you think this attack on the music festival is the first thing that's ever happened between Israel and Palestine? Surely you're not that stupid.
Israel is an occupying force and they're forcibly removing Palestinian civilians from their family homes. They are the aggressors. They are "Russia" in this analogy.
What a degenerated analogy...
Yeah, Israel has been oppressing Palestinian citizens for way longer than Russia's recent incursions into Ukraine. Good point.