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submitted 1 month ago by Greg@lemmy.ca to c/lemmyshitpost@lemmy.world
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[-] Enkers@sh.itjust.works 3 points 1 month ago

It's implicit. If consent was given, it wouldn't be exploitative. (And obviously, that's contingent upon non-coersion.)

[-] commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 1 month ago

common definitions of exploitation make no mention of consent either.

[-] Enkers@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 month ago

What? Where are you looking, the dictionary?

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/exploitation/

Consent is mentioned plenty.

[-] commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 1 month ago

encyclopedias are not dictionaries

[-] Enkers@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 month ago

An astute observation. Good thing I get all my knowledge from dictionaries so I can have a paper thin understanding of everything.

[-] commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 1 month ago

to be clear, dictionaries record the most common uses of terms. consulting a philosophy encyclopedia is not a good way to understand a term as it is used in vulgar vernacular.

[-] Enkers@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

If we we're having a discussion about physics, presumably we would use the terminology of physics. If we are having a discussion about morality and ethics (fields of philosophy, that is) we should probably use the terminology of philosophy. If you want to play semantic games, play them by yourself.

Veganism is an ethical position and as such can only be properly understood in the context of ethics.

[-] commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 1 month ago

if the vegan society wants to create an additional carve-out for consensual exploitation in addition to its exceptions for practicability and possibility, it's not as though they are unaware of these concepts. they have not done so, and there is no reason to believe they mean to do so.

[-] Enkers@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

We're not talking about consensual exploitation. Were talking about behaviors that aren't exploitation due to, or perhaps shown not to be so by consent. There's no need to explicitly mention consent because a) it would needlessly complicate the definition, b) as a practical matter, it almost never actually arises except in these sorts of thought experiments, and c) it's already included implicitly in the concept of exploitation.

Let's look at our original thought experiment: "It's vegan to eat someone who has consented to being eaten."

Usually we don't put too much thought into this sort of stuff because it doesn't really come up much outside of tongue in cheek mention, but I digress.

OK, so off the bat, if you think about it, there are indeed some problems with this statement. There could be systemic issues that made them consent to something harmful because the transactional benefit outweighs the harm to them. So in that sense, you're right, looking directly for exploitation is the more objectively vegan thing to do.

However what if they have a genuine desire to be eaten (non-injuriously or posthumously, hopefully) where there are no confounding influences like above? The absence of exploitation is indicated through consent, in this case, and indeed, without any form of consent the other party would have no way to know of their desire to be eaten.

I think maybe a more realistic example than eating someone would be "Is it vegan to honour someone's organ-donor card?" That seems to me to be a fairly clearcut case of accepting consent as implying non-exploitation.

[-] commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

The absence of exploitation is indicated through consent,

no, it's not. it's exploitation by the barest definition, like exploiting a fallow field or a forest. the definition of exploitation can by synonymously defined as "use". using a corpse is exploiting it. using a corpse which has, with informed consent, been consigned for use is still exploitation.

[-] Enkers@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

That would imply that vegans could not have sex with each other because it "uses" the body of an animal.

Exploitation involves one using the vulnerability of another in order to gain something in an unfair manner. It's not simply "use".

[-] commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 1 month ago

the barest definition is a synonym of "use". the vegan society could clear up this ambiguity but they have chosen not to do so, and there is no reason to assume they prefer a special definition of exploitation.

[-] Enkers@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 month ago

If you want the barest understanding, I guess the barest definitions are "good enough". If you want a more sophisticated understanding then you have to take the time to understand the actual philosophical lexicon that the definition relies upon, since, as it points out itself, "Veganism is a philosophy".

Y'know, considering your username is commie, I'm surprised you don't have a better understanding of exploitation, as Marx was really pivotal in developing that philosophical concept.

[-] commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 1 month ago

I'm surprised you don't have a better understanding of exploitation

you have no idea what my understanding is. that's not the subject of our discussion. don't make this personal.

we are discussing the vegan society's understanding.

[-] Enkers@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Approximately 0.01% of lemmy's user base would conflate simple "use" with exploitation. I warned you about sophistry before. If you have knowledge relevant to the domain at hand, put it to use, or stop wasting both of our time.

[-] commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 1 month ago

Approximately 0.01% of lemmy’s user base would conflate simple “use” with exploitation.

can you substantiate this?

[-] commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 1 month ago

stop wasting both of our time.

you’re free to not respond at any time.

[-] commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 1 month ago

three mentions across 2 paragraphs. all of the mentions imply that consent would somehow relieve accusations of exploitation, but that isn't established in your article for a certainty, and at best i'd say it's debatable. i don't care to debate about it. it's clear that the vulgar use of the term is unrelated entirely.

[-] Enkers@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Your assertion was that consent isn't at all relevant to veganism in regards to exploitation. However, if there exist situations in which consent could relieve the existence of exploitation then it must be relevant to consider.

Also, not that it matters, but there are 10 mentions if you also search for "consensual", but that's not really here nor there.

If you don't wish to debate, you're free to not respond at any time.

[-] commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 1 month ago

Your assertion was that consent isn’t at all relevant to veganism in regards to exploitation. However, if there exist situations in which consent could relieve the existence of exploitation then it must be relevant to consider.

it's not clear that the vegan society would allow for any exploitation, consensual or otherwise, and to the extent that sometimes people consent to being exploited, there is no reason to believe that exploitation ceases to exist in those cases.

this post was submitted on 07 Sep 2024
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